[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff
Goldfinga productions.
goldfingas at gmail.com
Sun Feb 28 20:34:28 EST 2016
Twitter client. Lol.
-----Original Message-----
From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at bluegrasspals.com] On Behalf Of onlineeagle
via RWP
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2016 6:00 AM
To: Reapers Without Peepers
Cc: onlineeagle
Subject: Re: [Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and
stuff
Chicken nugget? Is that a typo? What on earth is Chicken Nugget??
Sent from my iPhone
> On 28 Feb 2016, at 00:37, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I use win and shift as a modifier. Chicken Nugget uses control win a
> lot so I already avoided that, even though I'm running Windows 8.1,
>
> Justin
>
>> On 27/02/2016 23:12, Chris Belle wrote:
>> Nice ones.
>>
>> I'll share my short cuts with any one who wants them, only have a few
>> now, but the ones that might be most useful are the consolidated
>> actions for automation with volume and pan and such, for the alt
>> down and up arrows and such, doing them 20 times in one go for a 1 db up
or down, it's not hard to make these actions, but that dialogue isn't the
most intuitive thing in the world 'smile'.
>> Also my fx up and down in a chain, those are very handy.
>> But Patrick warned me about the using the win key for windows 10, so
>> I should probably re-map those to other keys.
>>
>>
>>> On 2/27/2016 4:51 PM, onlineeagle via RWP wrote:
>>> Ok, here are my actions which I think are really useful, and will be
useful for others too.
>>> The first action is "Item: remove selected area of items." I've assigned
this to control backspace. Alt delete would also work well.
>>> Second action: "Copy selected area of items." I've mapped that to
control alt C.
>>> Third is: "Cut selected area of items." Control alt X is taken with the
Media Explorer, so I've gone for Control Alt Backspace.
>>> These three actions are really useful for me. Basically, you can use
Reaper like Sonar, making a time selection and coppying, cutting and
deleting. I love splitting items, but sometimes it's good to be able to
select multiple tracks and use alt left left and right bracket to select and
then delete, cut or copy the content.
>>> The other two actions I use all the time are: "Item: fade items into
cursor." I've assigned this to control alt shift I. "Item, fade items out
from cursor" is assigned to control alt shift O.
>>> They are the main ones. I mentioned my item pitch items before, but
these are less essential for most users.
>>> Control alt shift 9 to pitch item down an octave, an control alt shift 0
to pitch up an octave. Control alt shift dash to reset item pitch. Hope
these help. They certainly help me.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 14:58, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ok, aI answered my own question, it takes two presses of the enter key,
but in the case of an fx send if you arrow up to the top of the combo box
and enter twice at the heading part, you don't insert anything.
>>>> This is good enough.
>>>> Nice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/27/2016 7:20 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>> I guess i was taking expanding the combo box as one thing, and the
populating as another.
>>>>> two different points.
>>>>> Anyway, it's all good.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/27/2016 6:48 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>> FYI, it wasn't Jamie that bamboozled you with ambiguity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jamie asked: does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box?
>>>>>> Scott said: just tested expanding with Alt+Down arrow here, and
>>>>>> it does seem to work as expected nowadays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure where the ambiguity is in the context of what was
>>>>>> being discussed, but glad it worked for you (two out of three times
anyway).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/27/16, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Ok, I did read those, but I don't remember you saying it
>>>>>>> specifically didn't populate if you did nothing.
>>>>>>> Making a general statement like the combo box expands properly
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> give specific information so I had no idea if you meant it
>>>>>>> didn't populate automatically anymore Ok, in context, it might
>>>>>>> have been infered, It was rather ambiguous 'smile'.
>>>>>>> Anyway, if this is what you mean, then thank you kindly I am
informed now.
>>>>>>> Also one of my bad habbits is
>>>>>>> to read messages from the bottom, I had a filter with messages
>>>>>>> going from Osara and then the reaper list to different folders,
>>>>>>> but they are sort of getting mixed up and I haven't fixed it
>>>>>>> yet, so I've been going back and forth between two mail folders
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/27/2016 3:30 AM, James Teh wrote:
>>>>>>>> Think you missed a message. Can't imagine why on this list. Haha.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, the option we were discussing doesn't help... but
>>>>>>>> there's no need because the combo box expands properly in
>>>>>>>> recent versions of REAPER. So, press alt+downArrow, select what
>>>>>>>> you want without any rush and press enter. Done, problem solved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 5:51 PM, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeh, I'll try and find the action that makes it not populate
>>>>>>>>> if you stand still.
>>>>>>>>> That's the part that drives me nuts.
>>>>>>>>> If anyone figures out where that setting resides, please holler.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 5:41 PM, James Teh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't
>>>>>>>>>> change the way you deal with outputs in any way. That's
>>>>>>>>>> already accessible; it's just a combo box. I'm guessing the
>>>>>>>>>> issue is that it commits the change after a short delay even
>>>>>>>>>> if you just happened to pause and haven't finished selecting
>>>>>>>>>> yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for committing
>>>>>>>>>> changes automatically after delay (can't remember the exact
>>>>>>>>>> name offhand) would help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand
the combo box first? I'll have to check that when in front of REAPER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu
>>>>>>>>>> because unlike input selection, it relates to routing. By
>>>>>>>>>> default, REAPER outputs to the master. In contrast, in Sonar,
>>>>>>>>>> you have to select an output (or accept the default). That
>>>>>>>>>> automatic master track/bus doesn't exist in quite the same way
AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is
>>>>>>>>>> that we could have certain actions that open context menus
>>>>>>>>>> for choice. As long as each menu item starts with a different
>>>>>>>>>> letter, that means just two keystrokes for anything in that
>>>>>>>>>> menu. This trick also means you don't have to memorise the
>>>>>>>>>> second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you forget it.
>>>>>>>>>> Just something else to consider when thinking about lesser
>>>>>>>>>> used (but still useful) actions we might want in the default
>>>>>>>>>> map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but it's not too bad if it
offers a serious advantage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth
>>>>>>>>>>> <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> trivial, and given that Jamie is already over budget on the
>>>>>>>>>>> amount of hours that've been devoted to development, it'll
>>>>>>>>>>> be unlikely that the system you're describing will be part
>>>>>>>>>>> of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to everything
>>>>>>>>>>> multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>>>>>>>>>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the
>>>>>>>>>>> focus of Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on
>>>>>>>>>>> changes that will improve accessibility for all users, rather
than things that will extend possibilities specifically for power users,
tempting as it is.
>>>>>>>>>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API
>>>>>>>>>>> functionality and spent some hours fighting with his own
>>>>>>>>>>> code to get around one of our most lamented limitations, so
>>>>>>>>>>> it's already a dialog that's baring fruit. The result will be
with you soon.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about
>>>>>>>>>>> sighted power users making use of this if it were tied in
>>>>>>>>>>> with screen sets. I'd say it's fairly likely to get some
>>>>>>>>>>> traction on the forum, but for the reasons above, it's not
>>>>>>>>>>> something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct to Cockos at
>>>>>>>>>>> this point without a concrete design that would be massively
>>>>>>>>>>> beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>>>>>>>>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop
>>>>>>>>>>> you from asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print
>>>>>>>>>>> out of my Reaper license if he sees it as high priority.
>>>>>>>>>>> There are rough edges that need to be rounded off with
>>>>>>>>>>> Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his priority should be
>>>>>>>>>>> helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as well as a
>>>>>>>>>>> side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand
more about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, hence
future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough
>>>>>>>>>>> money in the pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely,
>>>>>>>>>>> so some judiciousness is required.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept
>>>>>>>>>>> that'd neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA,
>>>>>>>>>>> because almost everyone will be using those from day 1. If
>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has a system in mind that follows a clearer logic and
>>>>>>>>>>> uses less keys than what we're currently bundling, I'm all
>>>>>>>>>>> ears. I have a few ideas that I'm fleshing out here at the
>>>>>>>>>>> moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer yet, so
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users.
>>>>>>>>>>> For now, keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount
of people can read and contribute.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort
>>>>>>>>>>> that Derek and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I
>>>>>>>>>>> use it every day, dig most of it, and was quietly amazed at
>>>>>>>>>>> what Gianluca cooked up for editing MIDI in particular. All
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm saying is that I think we've stuck with the ReaAccess
>>>>>>>>>>> similarity because power users were familiar, rather than
sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable map.
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies,
>>>>>>>>>>> even if it means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old
>>>>>>>>>>> tin box of a brain and consequently making me less
>>>>>>>>>>> productive for a few weeks while the muscle memory develops.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> a crucial one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> limited number of keys we have available.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Derek, Jamie, Genluka or anyone, just provide users with
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability to create multiple keyboard profiles and they can
do with it as they will.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is
>>>>>>>>>>>> very send and effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to
>>>>>>>>>>>> do such and such to this or that numbered send and this and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that numbered slot in the effects chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular
>>>>>>>>>>>> type of project, but then let's say I do other work that
>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a lot of working with regions and markers. With
>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard sets, I could have a template for one type of
>>>>>>>>>>>> project, devoting my number row to sends, and a template
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is
>>>>>>>>>>>> used for markers and regions etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem are either for Jamie to implement user-defined
>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-press key-mapping in the same way ReaEar does, though
>>>>>>>>>>>> ReaEar's implementation isn't flaweless, or for us to just
>>>>>>>>>>>> keep going til e run out of keys and then people just have
>>>>>>>>>>>> to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that it'd be less work for him and sighted people would
>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit too. Lots do make heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-layer key map or keyboard sets,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this concept, because I've never seen it implemented in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a way that doesn't end up being just as confusing as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sprawling mappings it was intended to simplify. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said, if anyone shoots over fleshed out examples of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly eat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by
Cockos.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the drudgery of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> presumably allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configurations. what we really need are keyboard sets,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which would allow multiple shortcut key bindings for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefits to sighted people and supporting one another in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the request,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad, I thought I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS, I've become quite comfortable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flipping and swiping my way around and typing on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write my memoirs on it 'grin', but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper, I wonder if there's a way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make it distinguish between different keyboards as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate devices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole other layer of action bindings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a
bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an 802.11AC wireless card in it, all of which I had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lying around, believe it or not, and it runs pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as a casual stuff machine. It even has a firewire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> controller if I need that. That one has a virtual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numpad, but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktops for the past few years, it's kind of strange
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to see a full desktop keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over
there...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> style keyboard, even when using a laptop, I found out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long time ago it was just too much of a pain to deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the limitations of not having those extra keys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around a keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most common numpad things I use to other keys
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would probably not make much sense to anyone but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things.. on keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the numeric keypad on this laptop, because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just does not even have an emulation built in. Its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just unacceptable, but that is theway it came I I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think i am not alone on that department. Or, I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just have to buy and use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is just a bit unnecessary since you are able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create and automate reaper things..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automate reaper to select your audiod evices ETC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you first launch it... ETC because having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convoluted at best.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> viable in Windows 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure... the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> windows key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running out of room on the keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> weed those out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the time, depending on what you do you may not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want these but these are some of the one's I bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also like the one for turning markers to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions for exporting chunks of a long project,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to export regions, very useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long spoken word and audio book type projects, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I often have a couple of portable copies or reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering out long jobs while another reaper copy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is doing something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my reasons for loving portable reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each can live on the same machine, \with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's own config doing tasks while your doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else with another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by just typing the path to the executable in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run box with the - newinst switch, but if you copy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the folder to a new place with another name, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can have another configuration like for dummy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio for those rendering jobs, or another sound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card for recording, and leave it like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can do that if I need to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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