[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff
Chris Belle
cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Sat Feb 27 09:55:51 EST 2016
I save most of the message I get from these lists for review, and
reference, and now I think about it I remember something about combo
boxes being dealt with.
That is probably the message Jamie was refering to that I might have missed.
Now this is interesting.
I just tried this method for inserting a send and it does work just fine.
on that combo as well.
But if you change your mind and try and escape out of the combo box,
then you get a send even if you didn't want one.
I bet that's what happened before.
Now is there a way to avoid inserting something if you change your mind?
You can always un-do, but just asking, this is probably not something
that happens that often, but I have actually decided not to put an
effect in after auditioning one,
so aborting a send or routing combo box option might be a good thing
sometime.
On 2/27/2016 7:20 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
> I guess i was taking expanding the combo box as one thing, and the
> populating as another.
> two different points.
> Anyway, it's all good.
>
>
> On 2/27/2016 6:48 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>> FYI, it wasn't Jamie that bamboozled you with ambiguity.
>>
>> Jamie asked: does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box?
>> Scott said: just tested expanding with Alt+Down arrow here, and it
>> does seem to work as expected nowadays.
>>
>> I'm not sure where the ambiguity is in the context of what was being
>> discussed, but glad it worked for you (two out of three times anyway).
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On 2/27/16, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Ok, I did read those, but I don't remember you saying it specifically
>>> didn't populate if you did nothing.
>>> Making a general statement like the combo box expands properly
>>> doesn't
>>> give specific information so I had no idea if you meant it didn't
>>> populate automatically anymore
>>> Ok, in context, it might have been infered,
>>> It was rather ambiguous 'smile'.
>>> Anyway, if this is what you mean, then thank you kindly I am
>>> informed now.
>>> Also one of my bad habbits is
>>> to read messages from the bottom,
>>> I had a filter with messages going from Osara and then the reaper list
>>> to different folders,
>>> but they are sort of getting mixed up and I haven't fixed it yet, so
>>> I've been going back and forth between two mail folders
>>>
>>> On 2/27/2016 3:30 AM, James Teh wrote:
>>>> Think you missed a message. Can't imagine why on this list. Haha.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, the option we were discussing doesn't help... but there's
>>>> no need
>>>> because the combo box expands properly in recent versions of
>>>> REAPER. So,
>>>> press alt+downArrow, select what you want without any rush and press
>>>> enter. Done, problem solved.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>
>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 5:51 PM, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeh, I'll try and find the action that makes it not populate if
>>>>> you stand
>>>>> still.
>>>>> That's the part that drives me nuts.
>>>>> If anyone figures out where that setting resides, please holler.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 5:41 PM, James Teh wrote:
>>>>>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't
>>>>>> change the
>>>>>> way you deal with outputs in any way. That's already accessible;
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> just a combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that it commits the
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> after a short delay even if you just happened to pause and haven't
>>>>>> finished selecting yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for
>>>>>> committing changes automatically after delay (can't remember the
>>>>>> exact
>>>>>> name offhand) would help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> combo box first? I'll have to check that when in front of REAPER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because
>>>>>> unlike input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER
>>>>>> outputs to the master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an
>>>>>> output (or accept the default). That automatic master track/bus
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> exist in quite the same way AFAIK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that we
>>>>>> could have certain actions that open context menus for choice. As
>>>>>> long
>>>>>> as each menu item starts with a different letter, that means just
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> keystrokes for anything in that menu. This trick also means you
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> have to memorise the second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you
>>>>>> forget it. Just something else to consider when thinking about
>>>>>> lesser
>>>>>> used (but still useful) actions we might want in the default map.
>>>>>> THIS
>>>>>> isn't a 1 minute coding job, but it's not too bad if it offers a
>>>>>> serious
>>>>>> advantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth
>>>>>>> <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours
>>>>>>> that've
>>>>>>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system
>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>>>>>>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to
>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the
>>>>>>> focus of
>>>>>>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>>>>>>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as
>>>>>>> it is.
>>>>>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>>>>>>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>>>>>>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted
>>>>>>> power
>>>>>>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets.
>>>>>>> I'd say
>>>>>>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>>>>>>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take
>>>>>>> direct
>>>>>>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>>>>>>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>>>>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>>>>>>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>>>>>>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>>>>>>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>>>>>>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations,
>>>>>>> as well
>>>>>>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team
>>>>>>> understand more
>>>>>>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users,
>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some
>>>>>>> judiciousness
>>>>>>> is required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>>>>>>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>>>>>>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>>>>>>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what
>>>>>>> we're
>>>>>>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm
>>>>>>> fleshing
>>>>>>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a
>>>>>>> game-changer yet,
>>>>>>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For
>>>>>>> now,
>>>>>>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> read and contribute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that
>>>>>>> Derek
>>>>>>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day,
>>>>>>> dig
>>>>>>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>>>>>>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've
>>>>>>> stuck
>>>>>>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>>>>>>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical,
>>>>>>> extendable map.
>>>>>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even
>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a
>>>>>>> brain and
>>>>>>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>>>>>>> muscle memory develops.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a
>>>>>>>> crucial
>>>>>>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited
>>>>>>>> number of
>>>>>>>> keys
>>>>>>>> we have available.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek,
>>>>>>>> Jamie,
>>>>>>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>>>>>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very
>>>>>>>> send
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such
>>>>>>>> to this
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects
>>>>>>>> chain.
>>>>>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>>>>>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>>>>>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could
>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to
>>>>>>>> sends, and
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this
>>>>>>>> problem are
>>>>>>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press
>>>>>>>> key-mapping in
>>>>>>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>>>>>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>>>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is
>>>>>>>> that it'd
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do
>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer key
>>>>>>>>> map
>>>>>>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>>>>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling
>>>>>>>>> mappings it
>>>>>>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over
>>>>>>>>> fleshed
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd
>>>>>>>>> gladly eat
>>>>>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos.
>>>>>>>>> That'd
>>>>>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the
>>>>>>>>> drudgery
>>>>>>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which
>>>>>>>>>> presumably
>>>>>>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations.
>>>>>>>>>> what we
>>>>>>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple
>>>>>>>>>> shortcut
>>>>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the
>>>>>>>>>> benefits to
>>>>>>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the
>>>>>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way
>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between
>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>> layer
>>>>>>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an
>>>>>>>>>>>> 802.11AC
>>>>>>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around,
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe it
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It
>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>> has a
>>>>>>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual
>>>>>>>>>>>> numpad,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac
>>>>>>>>>>>> desktops for
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over
>>>>>>>>>>>> there...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extra
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things.. on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> came I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure... the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also like the one for turning markers to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> export
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> portable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my reasons for loving portable reaper because each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance by just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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