[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff

Chris Belle cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Sat Feb 27 07:30:19 EST 2016 

Ok, I did the alt down arrow thing and the first time it didn't work, 
but the second time and the third time it did work so go figure.


On 2/27/2016 6:08 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
> Ok, I did read those, but I don't remember you  saying it specifically 
> didn't populate if you did nothing.
> Making a general statement like the combo box expands properly
>  doesn't
> give specific information so I had no idea if you meant it didn't 
> populate automatically anymore
> Ok, in context, it might have been infered,
> It was rather ambiguous 'smile'.
> Anyway, if this is what you mean, then thank you kindly I am informed 
> now.
> Also one of my bad habbits is
> to read messages from the bottom,
> I had a filter with messages going from Osara and then the reaper list 
> to different folders,
> but they are sort of getting mixed up and I haven't fixed it yet, so 
> I've been going back and forth between two mail folders
>
> On 2/27/2016 3:30 AM, James Teh wrote:
>> Think you missed a message. Can't imagine why on this list. Haha.
>>
>> Anyway, the option we were discussing doesn't help... but there's no 
>> need because the combo box expands properly in recent versions of 
>> REAPER. So, press alt+downArrow, select what you want without any 
>> rush and press enter. Done, problem solved.
>>
>> Sent from a mobile device
>>
>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 5:51 PM, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeh, I'll try and find the action that makes it not populate if you 
>>> stand still.
>>> That's the part that drives me nuts.
>>> If anyone figures out where that setting resides, please holler.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2/26/2016 5:41 PM, James Teh wrote:
>>>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't change 
>>>> the way you deal with outputs in any way. That's already 
>>>> accessible; it's just a combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that 
>>>> it commits the change after a short delay even if you just happened 
>>>> to pause and haven't finished selecting yet? If so, I wonder if 
>>>> disabling the pref for committing changes automatically after delay 
>>>> (can't remember the exact name offhand) would help. Also, does 
>>>> alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box first? I'll have to 
>>>> check that when in front of REAPER.
>>>>
>>>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because 
>>>> unlike input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER 
>>>> outputs to the master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an 
>>>> output (or accept the default). That automatic master track/bus 
>>>> doesn't exist in quite the same way AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that 
>>>> we could have certain actions that open context menus for choice. 
>>>> As long as each menu item starts with a different letter, that 
>>>> means just two keystrokes for anything in that menu. This trick 
>>>> also means you don't have to memorise the second keystroke; you can 
>>>> use the arrows if you forget it. Just something else to consider 
>>>> when thinking about lesser used (but still useful) actions we might 
>>>> want in the default map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but it's 
>>>> not too bad if it offers a serious advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>
>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth 
>>>>> <scottchesworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial, and
>>>>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours 
>>>>> that've
>>>>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system you're
>>>>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>>>>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>>>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the focus of
>>>>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that will
>>>>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>>>>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as it is.
>>>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>>>>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of our
>>>>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>>>>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted power
>>>>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets. I'd say
>>>>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>>>>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct
>>>>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>>>>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>>>>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>>>>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>>>>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>>>>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as 
>>>>> well
>>>>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand 
>>>>> more
>>>>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, 
>>>>> hence
>>>>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in the
>>>>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some judiciousness
>>>>> is required.
>>>>>
>>>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>>>>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>>>>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>>>>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what we're
>>>>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm 
>>>>> fleshing
>>>>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer 
>>>>> yet,
>>>>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For now,
>>>>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people can
>>>>> read and contribute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that Derek
>>>>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day, dig
>>>>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>>>>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've 
>>>>> stuck
>>>>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>>>>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable 
>>>>> map.
>>>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even if it
>>>>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a brain and
>>>>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>>>>> muscle memory develops.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a 
>>>>>> crucial
>>>>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited number 
>>>>>> of keys
>>>>>> we have available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek, Jamie,
>>>>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>>>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very 
>>>>>> send and
>>>>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such to 
>>>>>> this or
>>>>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects 
>>>>>> chain.
>>>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>>>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>>>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could have a
>>>>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to 
>>>>>> sends, and a
>>>>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is 
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this problem are
>>>>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press 
>>>>>> key-mapping in
>>>>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>>>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and 
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is that 
>>>>>> it'd be
>>>>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do make
>>>>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer 
>>>>>>> key map
>>>>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way that
>>>>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling mappings it
>>>>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over 
>>>>>>> fleshed out
>>>>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly 
>>>>>>> eat
>>>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos. 
>>>>>>> That'd
>>>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the 
>>>>>>> drudgery
>>>>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which 
>>>>>>>> presumably
>>>>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations. 
>>>>>>>> what we
>>>>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple 
>>>>>>>> shortcut key
>>>>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the benefits to
>>>>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the 
>>>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way 
>>>>>>>>> around and
>>>>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between 
>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole 
>>>>>>>>> other layer
>>>>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a 
>>>>>>>>>> bit. It's
>>>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an 
>>>>>>>>>> 802.11AC
>>>>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around, believe 
>>>>>>>>>> it or
>>>>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It 
>>>>>>>>>> even has a
>>>>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual 
>>>>>>>>>> numpad,
>>>>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac desktops 
>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop 
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over 
>>>>>>>>>> there...
>>>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style 
>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was 
>>>>>>>>>>> just too
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those 
>>>>>>>>>>> extra
>>>>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a 
>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most 
>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not 
>>>>>>>>>>>> make much
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure things.. on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even have an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> came I I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to buy and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is just a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure...  the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> windows key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I also like the one for turning markers to regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to export
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> portable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my  reasons for loving portable reaper because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance  by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just typing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy audio 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can do 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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