[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff

Fri Feb 26 19:45:43 EST 2016

There were some combo box fixes in one of the 5.x builds. I forget which 
one. Maybe it got fixed then.

On 27/02/2016 10:43 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
> Re the combo box for new sends in the IO window, just tested expanding
> it with Alt+Down arrow here, and it does seem to work as expected
> nowadays. This machine has Reaper 5.0.4, so is a bit behind, but I
> reckon it might be a non-issue after all. I've made a note to mention
> the Alt+Down workaround when writing training.
>
> Hth someone
>
> Scott
>
> On 2/27/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
>> Regarding context menus on the Mac: I'm honestly not certain, but an
>> educated guess suggests custom context menus shouldn't be too hard to port.
>> I think it'll be easier than dialogs anyway. But until I actually get a Mac
>> here and start playing with stuff, I can't be truly sure of anything.
>>
>> Alt+downArrow not working on those combo boxes sounds like something worth
>> approaching Cockos with. I can sort of accept the commit on delay for
>> sighted users, but we need a way around it and expanding first is IMO an
>> acceptable solution.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from a mobile device
>>
>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 9:53 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Btw, that preference you mentioned (which I can't recall the exact
>>> name of either) only seemed to take effect on values entered into edit
>>> fields last time I toggled it. That was probably pre Reaper 5 though,
>>> could've changed since. Same deal with Alt+down to expand the combo
>>> box. Tbh, it's not been an issue here recently because I tend to stick
>>> fairly rigidly to track naming conventions for quicker navigation
>>> because what I do in Reaper these days lends itself well to that.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>> On 2/26/16, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey Jamie,
>>>>
>>>> Your context menu idea is appealing. One question before I get
>>>> attached, how much extra work would it be when it comes to the Mac
>>>> port? So far as I understand it, custom dialogues that are accessible
>>>> on both sides of the fence can be a headache - wouldn't this come
>>>> under the same thing?
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/26/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
>>>>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't change the
>>>>> way
>>>>> you deal with outputs in any way. That's already accessible; it's just
>>>>> a
>>>>> combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that it commits the change after a
>>>>> short delay even if you just happened to pause and haven't finished
>>>>> selecting yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for committing
>>>>> changes
>>>>> automatically after delay (can't remember the exact name offhand) would
>>>>> help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box first? I'll
>>>>> have
>>>>> to check that when in front of REAPER.
>>>>>
>>>>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because
>>>>> unlike
>>>>> input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER outputs to
>>>>> the
>>>>> master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an output (or accept
>>>>> the
>>>>> default). That automatic master track/bus doesn't exist in quite the
>>>>> same
>>>>> way AFAIK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that we
>>>>> could
>>>>> have certain actions that open context menus for choice. As long as
>>>>> each
>>>>> menu item starts with a different letter, that means just two
>>>>> keystrokes
>>>>> for
>>>>> anything in that menu. This trick also means you don't have to memorise
>>>>> the
>>>>> second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you forget it. Just
>>>>> something
>>>>> else to consider when thinking about lesser used (but still useful)
>>>>> actions
>>>>> we might want in the default map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but
>>>>> it's
>>>>> not too bad if it offers a serious advantage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial, and
>>>>>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours that've
>>>>>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system you're
>>>>>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>>>>>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>>>>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the focus of
>>>>>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that will
>>>>>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>>>>>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as it is.
>>>>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>>>>>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of our
>>>>>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>>>>>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted power
>>>>>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets. I'd say
>>>>>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>>>>>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct
>>>>>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>>>>>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>>>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>>>>>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>>>>>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>>>>>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>>>>>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as well
>>>>>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand more
>>>>>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, hence
>>>>>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in the
>>>>>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some judiciousness
>>>>>> is required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>>>>>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>>>>>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>>>>>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what we're
>>>>>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm fleshing
>>>>>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer yet,
>>>>>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For now,
>>>>>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people can
>>>>>> read and contribute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that Derek
>>>>>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day, dig
>>>>>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>>>>>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've stuck
>>>>>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>>>>>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable map.
>>>>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even if it
>>>>>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a brain and
>>>>>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>>>>>> muscle memory develops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a crucial
>>>>>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited number of
>>>>>>> keys
>>>>>>> we have available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek, Jamie,
>>>>>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>>>>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very send
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such to this
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects
>>>>>>> chain.
>>>>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>>>>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>>>>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could have a
>>>>>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to sends,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this problem are
>>>>>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press key-mapping in
>>>>>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>>>>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is that it'd
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do make
>>>>>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer key
>>>>>>>> map
>>>>>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>>>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way that
>>>>>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling mappings it
>>>>>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over fleshed
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly eat
>>>>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos.
>>>>>>>> That'd
>>>>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the
>>>>>>>> drudgery
>>>>>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which
>>>>>>>>> presumably
>>>>>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations. what we
>>>>>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple shortcut
>>>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the benefits to
>>>>>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the short
>>>>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way around
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between different
>>>>>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole other
>>>>>>>>>> layer
>>>>>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a bit.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an
>>>>>>>>>>> 802.11AC
>>>>>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around, believe it
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It even
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual
>>>>>>>>>>> numpad,
>>>>>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac desktops for
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop
>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over there...
>>>>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style
>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was just
>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those extra
>>>>>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a
>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not make
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure things.. on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even have an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it came I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure...  the windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    I also like the one for turning markers to regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to export
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long spoken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> portable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper copy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my  reasons for loving portable reaper because each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance  by just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy audio for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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-- 
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
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