[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff

Scott Chesworth scottchesworth at gmail.com
Fri Feb 26 19:43:12 EST 2016 

Re the combo box for new sends in the IO window, just tested expanding
it with Alt+Down arrow here, and it does seem to work as expected
nowadays. This machine has Reaper 5.0.4, so is a bit behind, but I
reckon it might be a non-issue after all. I've made a note to mention
the Alt+Down workaround when writing training.

Hth someone

Scott

On 2/27/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
> Regarding context menus on the Mac: I'm honestly not certain, but an
> educated guess suggests custom context menus shouldn't be too hard to port.
> I think it'll be easier than dialogs anyway. But until I actually get a Mac
> here and start playing with stuff, I can't be truly sure of anything.
>
> Alt+downArrow not working on those combo boxes sounds like something worth
> approaching Cockos with. I can sort of accept the commit on delay for
> sighted users, but we need a way around it and expanding first is IMO an
> acceptable solution.
>
>
>
> Sent from a mobile device
>
>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 9:53 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Btw, that preference you mentioned (which I can't recall the exact
>> name of either) only seemed to take effect on values entered into edit
>> fields last time I toggled it. That was probably pre Reaper 5 though,
>> could've changed since. Same deal with Alt+down to expand the combo
>> box. Tbh, it's not been an issue here recently because I tend to stick
>> fairly rigidly to track naming conventions for quicker navigation
>> because what I do in Reaper these days lends itself well to that.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>> On 2/26/16, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey Jamie,
>>>
>>> Your context menu idea is appealing. One question before I get
>>> attached, how much extra work would it be when it comes to the Mac
>>> port? So far as I understand it, custom dialogues that are accessible
>>> on both sides of the fence can be a headache - wouldn't this come
>>> under the same thing?
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>> On 2/26/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
>>>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't change the
>>>> way
>>>> you deal with outputs in any way. That's already accessible; it's just
>>>> a
>>>> combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that it commits the change after a
>>>> short delay even if you just happened to pause and haven't finished
>>>> selecting yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for committing
>>>> changes
>>>> automatically after delay (can't remember the exact name offhand) would
>>>> help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box first? I'll
>>>> have
>>>> to check that when in front of REAPER.
>>>>
>>>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because
>>>> unlike
>>>> input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER outputs to
>>>> the
>>>> master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an output (or accept
>>>> the
>>>> default). That automatic master track/bus doesn't exist in quite the
>>>> same
>>>> way AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that we
>>>> could
>>>> have certain actions that open context menus for choice. As long as
>>>> each
>>>> menu item starts with a different letter, that means just two
>>>> keystrokes
>>>> for
>>>> anything in that menu. This trick also means you don't have to memorise
>>>> the
>>>> second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you forget it. Just
>>>> something
>>>> else to consider when thinking about lesser used (but still useful)
>>>> actions
>>>> we might want in the default map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but
>>>> it's
>>>> not too bad if it offers a serious advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>>>
>>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial, and
>>>>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours that've
>>>>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system you're
>>>>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>>>>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>>>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the focus of
>>>>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that will
>>>>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>>>>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as it is.
>>>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>>>>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of our
>>>>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>>>>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted power
>>>>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets. I'd say
>>>>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>>>>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct
>>>>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>>>>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>>>>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>>>>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>>>>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>>>>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as well
>>>>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand more
>>>>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, hence
>>>>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in the
>>>>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some judiciousness
>>>>> is required.
>>>>>
>>>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>>>>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>>>>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>>>>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what we're
>>>>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm fleshing
>>>>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer yet,
>>>>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For now,
>>>>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people can
>>>>> read and contribute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that Derek
>>>>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day, dig
>>>>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>>>>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've stuck
>>>>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>>>>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable map.
>>>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even if it
>>>>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a brain and
>>>>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>>>>> muscle memory develops.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a crucial
>>>>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited number of
>>>>>> keys
>>>>>> we have available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek, Jamie,
>>>>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>>>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very send
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such to this
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects
>>>>>> chain.
>>>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>>>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>>>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could have a
>>>>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to sends,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this problem are
>>>>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press key-mapping in
>>>>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>>>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is that it'd
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do make
>>>>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer key
>>>>>>> map
>>>>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way that
>>>>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling mappings it
>>>>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over fleshed
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly eat
>>>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos.
>>>>>>> That'd
>>>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the
>>>>>>> drudgery
>>>>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which
>>>>>>>> presumably
>>>>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations. what we
>>>>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple shortcut
>>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the benefits to
>>>>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the short
>>>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way around
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between different
>>>>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole other
>>>>>>>>> layer
>>>>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a bit.
>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an
>>>>>>>>>> 802.11AC
>>>>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around, believe it
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It even
>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual
>>>>>>>>>> numpad,
>>>>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac desktops for
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over there...
>>>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style
>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was just
>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those extra
>>>>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a
>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most
>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not make
>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure things.. on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even have an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it came I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure...  the windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I also like the one for turning markers to regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to export
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long spoken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> portable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper copy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my  reasons for loving portable reaper because each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance  by just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy audio for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>> _______________________________________________
>> RWP mailing list
>> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>
> _______________________________________________
> RWP mailing list
> RWP at bluegrasspals.com
> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>

More information about the RWP mailing list