[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff

James Teh jamie at nvaccess.org
Fri Feb 26 19:07:59 EST 2016 

Regarding context menus on the Mac: I'm honestly not certain, but an educated guess suggests custom context menus shouldn't be too hard to port. I think it'll be easier than dialogs anyway. But until I actually get a Mac here and start playing with stuff, I can't be truly sure of anything.

Alt+downArrow not working on those combo boxes sounds like something worth approaching Cockos with. I can sort of accept the commit on delay for sighted users, but we need a way around it and expanding first is IMO an acceptable solution.



Sent from a mobile device

> On 27 Feb 2016, at 9:53 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Btw, that preference you mentioned (which I can't recall the exact
> name of either) only seemed to take effect on values entered into edit
> fields last time I toggled it. That was probably pre Reaper 5 though,
> could've changed since. Same deal with Alt+down to expand the combo
> box. Tbh, it's not been an issue here recently because I tend to stick
> fairly rigidly to track naming conventions for quicker navigation
> because what I do in Reaper these days lends itself well to that.
> 
> Scott
> 
>> On 2/26/16, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey Jamie,
>> 
>> Your context menu idea is appealing. One question before I get
>> attached, how much extra work would it be when it comes to the Mac
>> port? So far as I understand it, custom dialogues that are accessible
>> on both sides of the fence can be a headache - wouldn't this come
>> under the same thing?
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>>> On 2/26/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
>>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't change the
>>> way
>>> you deal with outputs in any way. That's already accessible; it's just a
>>> combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that it commits the change after a
>>> short delay even if you just happened to pause and haven't finished
>>> selecting yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for committing
>>> changes
>>> automatically after delay (can't remember the exact name offhand) would
>>> help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box first? I'll
>>> have
>>> to check that when in front of REAPER.
>>> 
>>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because unlike
>>> input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER outputs to the
>>> master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an output (or accept
>>> the
>>> default). That automatic master track/bus doesn't exist in quite the same
>>> way AFAIK.
>>> 
>>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that we
>>> could
>>> have certain actions that open context menus for choice. As long as each
>>> menu item starts with a different letter, that means just two keystrokes
>>> for
>>> anything in that menu. This trick also means you don't have to memorise
>>> the
>>> second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you forget it. Just something
>>> else to consider when thinking about lesser used (but still useful)
>>> actions
>>> we might want in the default map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but
>>> it's
>>> not too bad if it offers a serious advantage.
>>> 
>>> Sent from a mobile device
>>> 
>>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial, and
>>>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours that've
>>>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system you're
>>>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>>>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the focus of
>>>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that will
>>>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>>>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as it is.
>>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>>>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of our
>>>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>>>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>>> 
>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted power
>>>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets. I'd say
>>>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>>>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct
>>>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>>>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>>>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>>>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>>>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>>>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as well
>>>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand more
>>>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, hence
>>>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in the
>>>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some judiciousness
>>>> is required.
>>>> 
>>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>>>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>>>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>>>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what we're
>>>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm fleshing
>>>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer yet,
>>>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For now,
>>>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people can
>>>> read and contribute.
>>>> 
>>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that Derek
>>>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day, dig
>>>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>>>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've stuck
>>>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>>>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable map.
>>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even if it
>>>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a brain and
>>>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>>>> muscle memory develops.
>>>> 
>>>> Scott
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a crucial
>>>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited number of
>>>>> keys
>>>>> we have available.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek, Jamie,
>>>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very send and
>>>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such to this
>>>>> or
>>>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects
>>>>> chain.
>>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could have a
>>>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to sends, and
>>>>> a
>>>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is used
>>>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this problem are
>>>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press key-mapping in
>>>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and then
>>>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is that it'd
>>>>> be
>>>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do make
>>>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Justin
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer key map
>>>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way that
>>>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling mappings it
>>>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over fleshed out
>>>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly eat
>>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos. That'd
>>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the drudgery
>>>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which presumably
>>>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations. what we
>>>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple shortcut
>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the benefits to
>>>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the short
>>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way around and
>>>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between different
>>>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole other
>>>>>>>> layer
>>>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a bit.
>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an 802.11AC
>>>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around, believe it or
>>>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It even has
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual numpad,
>>>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac desktops for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop
>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over there...
>>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was just
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those extra
>>>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most
>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not make
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure things.. on
>>>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the
>>>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even have an
>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it came I I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have to buy
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that is just
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate reaper to
>>>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC because
>>>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure...  the windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I also like the one for turning markers to regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to export
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long spoken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> portable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper copy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my  reasons for loving portable reaper because each can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance  by just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy audio for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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