[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff

Scott Chesworth scottchesworth at gmail.com
Fri Feb 26 18:53:51 EST 2016 

Btw, that preference you mentioned (which I can't recall the exact
name of either) only seemed to take effect on values entered into edit
fields last time I toggled it. That was probably pre Reaper 5 though,
could've changed since. Same deal with Alt+down to expand the combo
box. Tbh, it's not been an issue here recently because I tend to stick
fairly rigidly to track naming conventions for quicker navigation
because what I do in Reaper these days lends itself well to that.

Scott

On 2/26/16, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Jamie,
>
> Your context menu idea is appealing. One question before I get
> attached, how much extra work would it be when it comes to the Mac
> port? So far as I understand it, custom dialogues that are accessible
> on both sides of the fence can be a headache - wouldn't this come
> under the same thing?
>
> Scott
>
> On 2/26/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
>> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't change the
>> way
>> you deal with outputs in any way. That's already accessible; it's just a
>> combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that it commits the change after a
>> short delay even if you just happened to pause and haven't finished
>> selecting yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for committing
>> changes
>> automatically after delay (can't remember the exact name offhand) would
>> help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box first? I'll
>> have
>> to check that when in front of REAPER.
>>
>> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because unlike
>> input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER outputs to the
>> master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an output (or accept
>> the
>> default). That automatic master track/bus doesn't exist in quite the same
>> way AFAIK.
>>
>> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that we
>> could
>> have certain actions that open context menus for choice. As long as each
>> menu item starts with a different letter, that means just two keystrokes
>> for
>> anything in that menu. This trick also means you don't have to memorise
>> the
>> second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you forget it. Just something
>> else to consider when thinking about lesser used (but still useful)
>> actions
>> we might want in the default map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but
>> it's
>> not too bad if it offers a serious advantage.
>>
>> Sent from a mobile device
>>
>>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial, and
>>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours that've
>>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system you're
>>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the focus of
>>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that will
>>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as it is.
>>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of our
>>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted power
>>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets. I'd say
>>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct
>>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as well
>>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand more
>>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, hence
>>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>>
>>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in the
>>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some judiciousness
>>> is required.
>>>
>>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what we're
>>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm fleshing
>>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer yet,
>>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For now,
>>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people can
>>> read and contribute.
>>>
>>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that Derek
>>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day, dig
>>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've stuck
>>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable map.
>>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even if it
>>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a brain and
>>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>>> muscle memory develops.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a crucial
>>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited number of
>>>> keys
>>>> we have available.
>>>>
>>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek, Jamie,
>>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>>
>>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very send and
>>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such to this
>>>> or
>>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects
>>>> chain.
>>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could have a
>>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to sends, and
>>>> a
>>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is used
>>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>>
>>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this problem are
>>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press key-mapping in
>>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and then
>>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>>
>>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is that it'd
>>>> be
>>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do make
>>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>>
>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer key map
>>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>>
>>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way that
>>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling mappings it
>>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over fleshed out
>>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly eat
>>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos. That'd
>>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the drudgery
>>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which presumably
>>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations. what we
>>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple shortcut
>>>>>> key
>>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the benefits to
>>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the short
>>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way around and
>>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between different
>>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole other
>>>>>>> layer
>>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a bit.
>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an 802.11AC
>>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around, believe it or
>>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It even has
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual numpad,
>>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac desktops for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop
>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over there...
>>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style
>>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was just
>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those extra
>>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a
>>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most
>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not make
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure things.. on
>>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the
>>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even have an
>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it came I I
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have to buy
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that is just
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate reaper to
>>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC because
>>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure...  the windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> key.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> room
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    I also like the one for turning markers to regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to export
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long spoken
>>>>>>>>>>>>> word
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> portable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper copy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my  reasons for loving portable reaper because each can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance  by just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy audio for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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