[Rwp] some thoughts for the keymap development and things and stuff

Scott Chesworth scottchesworth at gmail.com
Fri Feb 26 18:50:09 EST 2016 

Hey Jamie,

Your context menu idea is appealing. One question before I get
attached, how much extra work would it be when it comes to the Mac
port? So far as I understand it, custom dialogues that are accessible
on both sides of the fence can be a headache - wouldn't this come
under the same thing?

Scott

On 2/26/16, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
> The improvements coming in the next version of REAPER don't change the way
> you deal with outputs in any way. That's already accessible; it's just a
> combo box. I'm guessing the issue is that it commits the change after a
> short delay even if you just happened to pause and haven't finished
> selecting yet? If so, I wonder if disabling the pref for committing changes
> automatically after delay (can't remember the exact name offhand) would
> help. Also, does alt+downArrow help to expand the combo box first? I'll have
> to check that when in front of REAPER.
>
> Output selection can't really be in the track context menu because unlike
> input selection, it relates to routing. By default, REAPER outputs to the
> master. In contrast, in Sonar, you have to select an output (or accept the
> default). That automatic master track/bus doesn't exist in quite the same
> way AFAIK.
>
> Regarding multi-press, one other possibility worth noting is that we could
> have certain actions that open context menus for choice. As long as each
> menu item starts with a different letter, that means just two keystrokes for
> anything in that menu. This trick also means you don't have to memorise the
> second keystroke; you can use the arrows if you forget it. Just something
> else to consider when thinking about lesser used (but still useful) actions
> we might want in the default map. THIS isn't a 1 minute coding job, but it's
> not too bad if it offers a serious advantage.
>
> Sent from a mobile device
>
>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 8:59 AM, Scott Chesworth <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Multi-press with OSARA can and has been done, but isn't trivial, and
>> given that Jamie is already over budget on the amount of hours that've
>> been devoted to development, it'll be unlikely that the system you're
>> describing will be part of OSARA. That's not to say a flat no to
>> everything multi-press. You know the drill, submit examples to GitHub
>> and he'll take them on a case by case basis. Similarly, the focus of
>> Jamie's dialog with Cockos themselves has to be on changes that will
>> improve accessibility for all users, rather than things that will
>> extend possibilities specifically for power users, tempting as it is.
>> Jamie has already gotten them to add some new API functionality and
>> spent some hours fighting with his own code to get around one of our
>> most lamented limitations, so it's already a dialog that's baring
>> fruit. The result will be with you soon.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I believe that you're right about sighted power
>> users making use of this if it were tied in with screen sets. I'd say
>> it's fairly likely to get some traction on the forum, but for the
>> reasons above, it's not something I'll encourage Jamie to take direct
>> to Cockos at this point without a concrete design that would be
>> massively beneficial to all OSARA users, particularly those who are
>> just making the switch to Reaper. There's nothing to stop you from
>> asking him instead of course, but I'll eat a print out of my Reaper
>> license if he sees it as high priority. There are rough edges that
>> need to be rounded off with Reaper's accessibility, and IMO, his
>> priority should be helping them fix existing bugs/limitations, as well
>> as a side salad of helping the Cockos development team understand more
>> about how the stuff they're implementing actually affects users, hence
>> future-proofing our access to Reaper.
>>
>> Sorry to be a stick in the mud. There's just not enough money in the
>> pot to have His Geniusness coding indefinitely, so some judiciousness
>> is required.
>>
>> My focus right now is on trying to come up with a concept that'd
>> neaten up the mappings that come bundled with OSARA, because almost
>> everyone will be using those from day 1. If anyone has a system in
>> mind that follows a clearer logic and uses less keys than what we're
>> currently bundling, I'm all ears. I have a few ideas that I'm fleshing
>> out here at the moment, but none of them feel like a game-changer yet,
>> so I'm eager for community input from a wide range of users. For now,
>> keep this on RWP rather than GitHub so the most amount of people can
>> read and contribute.
>>
>> Btw, the last paragraph is in no way a diss on the effort that Derek
>> and Gianluca have put in to the D&G key map. I use it every day, dig
>> most of it, and was quietly amazed at what Gianluca cooked up for
>> editing MIDI in particular. All I'm saying is that I think we've stuck
>> with the ReaAccess similarity because power users were familiar,
>> rather than sticking with it because it was a logical, extendable map.
>> I'm keen to have a less steep learning curve for newbies, even if it
>> means attempting to reprogram my own rusty old tin box of a brain and
>> consequently making me less productive for a few weeks while the
>> muscle memory develops.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> the only way it would simplify things, though I think it is a crucial
>>> one, is allowing us to get more milage out of the limited number of keys
>>> we have available.
>>>
>>> The thing is that this wouldn't be any extra work for Derek, Jamie,
>>> Genluka or anyone, just provide users with the ability to create
>>> multiple keyboard profiles and they can do with it as they will.
>>>
>>> Let's say for example I am dealing with a project that is very send and
>>> effects chain heavy. SWS provides actions to do such and such to this or
>>> that numbered send and this and that numbered slot in the effects chain.
>>> Well I would need to do a lot of this for this particular type of
>>> project, but then let's say I do other work that requires a lot of
>>> working with regions and markers. With keyboard sets, I could have a
>>> template for one type of project, devoting my number row to sends, and a
>>> template that's more navigation focussed, where the number row is used
>>> for markers and regions etc.
>>>
>>> the only other two ways I can think of to get round this problem are
>>> either for Jamie to implement user-defined multi-press key-mapping in
>>> the same way ReaEar does, though ReaEar's implementation isn't
>>> flaweless, or for us to just keep going til e run out of keys and then
>>> people just have to winnow out what they personally don't use for
>>> themselves, keeping only the most used key-bindings.
>>>
>>> The advantage of Reaper implementing it instead of Jamie is that it'd be
>>> less work for him and sighted people would benefit too. Lots do make
>>> heavy use of the shortcut keys,
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>>> On 26/02/2016 20:45, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>> Hey Justin, and anyone else who's interested in a multi-layer key map
>>>> or keyboard sets,
>>>>
>>>> I might as well say that as things stand I'm not a fan of this
>>>> concept, because I've never seen it implemented in such a way that
>>>> doesn't end up being just as confusing as the sprawling mappings it
>>>> was intended to simplify. That said, if anyone shoots over fleshed out
>>>> examples of precisely how this would simplify things, I'd gladly eat
>>>> my words, and can currently make sure it'll get seen by Cockos. That'd
>>>> give us at least a chance of getting the feature without the drudgery
>>>> of voting on requests etc.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/26/16, Justin <justinmacleod at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sighted people have access to different screensets, which presumably
>>>>> allow them to use Reaper in multiple visual configurations. what we
>>>>> really need are keyboard sets, which would allow multiple shortcut key
>>>>> bindings for different scenarioes. We could start a thread on the
>>>>> feature requests forum asking for it, pointing out the benefits to
>>>>> sighted people and supporting one another in the request,
>>>>>
>>>>> Justin
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26/02/2016 18:42, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>> Yeh, it's funny about that stuff, and what we get used to.
>>>>>> I'm kind of just the opposite on the IPad,
>>>>>> I thought I'd really want a bluetooth keyboard, but with the short
>>>>>> time I've spent on iOS,
>>>>>> I've become quite comfortable flipping and swiping my way around and
>>>>>> typing on a virtual keyboard.
>>>>>> I wouldn't want to write
>>>>>> my memoirs
>>>>>> on it 'grin', but hey, for modest data entry it's not so bad.
>>>>>> But getting back to reaper,
>>>>>> I wonder if there's a way to make it distinguish between different
>>>>>> keyboards as separate devices.
>>>>>> Probably not,
>>>>>> but if it could, then that's a big possibility for a whole other
>>>>>> layer
>>>>>> of action bindings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 10:30 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>> I have an old Dell laptop from 2009 that I have upgraded a bit. It's
>>>>>>> a core2 duo T9600. I stuck 8GB of ram, a 240GB SSD and an 802.11AC
>>>>>>> wireless card in it, all of which I had lying around, believe it or
>>>>>>> not, and it runs pretty good as a casual stuff machine. It even has
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> firewire controller if I need that. That one has a virtual numpad,
>>>>>>> but my main laptop doesn't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that I've been primarily using laptops or Mac desktops for the
>>>>>>> past few years, it's kind of strange to see a full desktop keyboard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm all like "Oh, right... that extra bunch of keys over there...
>>>>>>> Forgot about those..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 11:14 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm the neanderthal here, I just insist on an old style
>>>>>>>> keyboard,
>>>>>>>> even when using a laptop, I found out long time ago it was just too
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> of a pain to deal with the limitations of not having those extra
>>>>>>>> keys,
>>>>>>>> and I have a couple of USB numeric key pad thingies
>>>>>>>> which are a good compromise when I just can't haul around a
>>>>>>>> keyboard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:20 AM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yep. No numpad either, so I have mapped a bunch of the most common
>>>>>>>>> numpad things I use to other keys that would probably not make
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> sense to anyone but me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 8:59 AM, Juan Pablo Bello wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking we need a better way to structure things.. on
>>>>>>>>>> keymaps.
>>>>>>>>>> THere is just no way I am ever going to be able to use the
>>>>>>>>>> numeric
>>>>>>>>>> keypad on this laptop, because it just does not even have an
>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>> built in. Its just unacceptable, but that is theway it came I I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> i am not alone on that department. Or, I would just have to buy
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> use a separate keyboard..
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, nice going with the portable installs, I think that is just
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary since you are able to create and automate reaper
>>>>>>>>>> things..
>>>>>>>>>> its better to have just created a script and automate reaper to
>>>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>>>> your audiod evices ETC when you first launch it... ETC because
>>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>>> several installs of the program I think is a bit convoluted at
>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2016-02-26 3:22 GMT-05:00, Patrick Perdue <patrick at pdaudio.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just so you know, control win anything is not viable in Windows
>>>>>>>>>>> 10.
>>>>>>>>>>> Windows does a lot more now with, go figure...  the windows key.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/26/2016 3:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's been a lot of talk about how we are running out of room
>>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> keymap.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed some duplications, first we should weed those out.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have some very useful actions that I use all the time,
>>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>> on what you do you may not want these but these are some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> one's I
>>>>>>>>>>>> bind.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actions to move fx up and down in the chain.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I bind those to control win up and down arrows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>    I also like the one for turning markers to regions for
>>>>>>>>>>>> exporting
>>>>>>>>>>>> chunks of a long project, like audio books and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>> control win m
>>>>>>>>>>>> When you do that you can set your render options to export
>>>>>>>>>>>> regions,
>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think reaper lends itself especially well to long spoken word
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> audio book type projects, and I often have a couple of portable
>>>>>>>>>>>> copies
>>>>>>>>>>>> or reaper rendering out long jobs while another reaper copy is
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my  reasons for loving portable reaper because each can
>>>>>>>>>>>> live on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the same machine,
>>>>>>>>>>>> \with it's own config doing tasks while your doing something
>>>>>>>>>>>> else with
>>>>>>>>>>>> another instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can of course, instantiate a reaper instance  by just
>>>>>>>>>>>> typing
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> path to the executable in the run box with the - newinst
>>>>>>>>>>>> switch, but if you copy the folder to a new place with another
>>>>>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>>>>>> you can have another configuration like for dummy audio for
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>> rendering jobs,
>>>>>>>>>>>> or another sound card for recording, and leave it like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have reaper1, reaper2, and so on and so forth
>>>>>>>>>>>> not always that complex, but it's nice to know I can do that if
>>>>>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go, for what it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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