[Rwp] different driver modes in reaper

Chris Belle cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Wed Apr 20 01:13:15 EDT 2016 

Ok, 48 k seems to be the top I can go in exclusive wasapi mode.
Also what I originally thought was super low latency isn't as low as I 
thought it was, because midi can fool you being only one way, when 
running audio through it even a single card, not in one and out the 
other there is still some latency,
and there's no way to really tell but even with the block size set to 0 
I'm taking a guess from my years of messing with this that we're in the 
neighborhood of 256 equivalent asio buffers.
But the best thing about this crazy mode is that I can use the good pres 
from my steinberg to work with the audiobox.


On 4/19/2016 11:28 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
> By the way, one more thing.
> the labeled track inputs in reaper now say just one and 2 no longer 
> reflecting the names of the devices.
>
>
> On 4/19/2016 10:40 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
>> But I guess it doesn't matter on the little devices because when you 
>> plug in anything, it turns in to a compossit device anyway,
>> you don't get the separate ins and outs,
>> I'm not sure which device actually has the clock,
>> but what is interesting is that when I plug a class compliant USB 
>> device to the Ipad,
>> and plug a mic or what ever in to it, and then plug headphones or 
>> speakers in to the analog jack of the ipad, the USB device I plugged 
>> in has control
>> of the volume, even though the sound is going out of the Ipad analog 
>> out.
>> This isn't true for true analog controls like on the audiobox usb,
>> but for this little thumb drive
>> like sound card via chip device which has up and down buttons on it 
>> softwre controled volume I'm sure.
>> so the question is does the dac in the Ipad have control of the sound 
>> and handed the control off to the controls of the
>> little external card, or is it the other way around?
>> They've combined in some way.
>> to act like one device.
>>
>> On 4/19/2016 10:28 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>> If it were only that simple.
>>> Serious audio guys will use an external dac anyway, interface, what 
>>> have you.
>>> I get it that an 8th inch jack unbalanced isn't the pro standard, 
>>> but surprisingly clean and quiet on my Ipad.
>>> But  my point is
>>> compatibility with all the high end headphones out there which 
>>> people might want to use, and forcing people to use another dac just 
>>> to get an analog signal to said phones, or speakers will defeat the 
>>> point of even having a sound chip on the apple.
>>> In some ways at any rate, yes they will allow to go to their built 
>>> in speakers or what ever, but you needed  buffered data of some kind 
>>> to get out
>>> to the outside world, through the lightning port which is just USB 
>>> more or less,
>>> so you loose the possibility of having the best latency from the 
>>> built in chip even if it has to go out through that 8th inch jack.
>>>
>>> On 4/19/2016 9:56 PM, Snowman wrote:
>>>> digital, digital, digital, digital,. digital.
>>>> Analog is just old school.  Dull and boring, and not very 
>>>> interesting either. Oh boy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Belle" 
>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at bluegrasspals.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:17 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rwp] different driver modes in reaper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not a good move on apple's part in my oppinion.
>>>>> I guess they'll have to have some sort of external dac or adapter 
>>>>> so folks can run other than apple sanctioned or bluetooth
>>>>> audio.
>>>>> They really should at least leave you a standard headphone or 
>>>>> speaker out.
>>>>> I guess they'll have some sort of hub thing so you can charge your 
>>>>> phone or what ever and plug the adapter for standard headphones in 
>>>>> at the same time.
>>>>> Meh.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/18/2016 7:52 PM, Bryan Smart wrote:
>>>>>> True, and, since Apple is ditching analog audio I/O, I doubt it 
>>>>>> will ever be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 8:46 PM, Patrick Perdue 
>>>>>>> <patrick at perdue.audio> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know what's kind of funny? Obviously, you'll get some cross 
>>>>>>> talk with a combo mic/headphone jack like that, but it seems 
>>>>>>> like the jacks/chips Apple use on all their stuff (iPhone, iPad, 
>>>>>>> Macs) are some of the worst offenders. I have a junky low-end 
>>>>>>> Acer Windows tablet with one of these combo jacks, and cross 
>>>>>>> talk is almost, but not quite non-existent. With the same ear 
>>>>>>> pods on my iPhone or Mac, it's noticeably much worse. The iStuff 
>>>>>>> uses Cirrus Logic DAC's, while the cheap Acer uses an integrated 
>>>>>>> Intel something-or-other. Of course, in this case, the D/A stage 
>>>>>>> is not to blame.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just an interesting thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/18/2016 8:04 PM, Bryan Smart wrote:
>>>>>>>> I’ve been doing this for a while. Built-in sound device on my 
>>>>>>>> Macbook Air works in WSAPI mode with practically no latency. 
>>>>>>>> You can have junky sequencing sessions with just the laptop, 
>>>>>>>> virtual MIDI keyboard, and earbuds plugged in. I’d actually 
>>>>>>>> consider using the earbuds mic for something, but the combo 
>>>>>>>> earbuds jack leaks sound from the earbuds back in to the mic, 
>>>>>>>> so I still must plug in a dedicated mic to record a vocal/voice 
>>>>>>>> over. Oh well. Can’t have it all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Chris Belle 
>>>>>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well wonders will never cease.
>>>>>>>>> I think with windows 10 we've finally got something 
>>>>>>>>> approaching note I said approaching core audio low latency 
>>>>>>>>> with junky internal devices.
>>>>>>>>> Just took wasapi for a spin,
>>>>>>>>> and it works better on this machine than my nice steinberg 
>>>>>>>>> interface, I think I'm going to go sit in the corner and cry, ha.
>>>>>>>>> But serious now, this is great, it means you can now do casual 
>>>>>>>>> things with the onboard hardware and work at low latencies, 
>>>>>>>>> and that's not a reason to be trying to do all yourstudio 
>>>>>>>>> stuff like that because plenty of reasons not to record with 
>>>>>>>>> those little 8th inch jacks for pro stuf, and the internal 
>>>>>>>>> realtech device is hardy a pro device, but mixing on the bus, 
>>>>>>>>> or throwing together some casual midi tracks, this will make 
>>>>>>>>> it nicer to do such things in windows.
>>>>>>>>> finally,
>>>>>>>>> wasapi was in windows 7 but it had lots of latency.
>>>>>>>>> so I didn't solve my problem yet, but I did get a couple candy 
>>>>>>>>> drops for upgrading to windows 10 so hey,
>>>>>>>>> hurray for wasapi how ever far it get's us.
>>>>>>>>> Now I'm really curious since I think these realtech cards will 
>>>>>>>>> actually support up to 96k and 24 bit if it will actualy 
>>>>>>>>> record like that does reaper give a round trip latency like 
>>>>>>>>> sonar does anyplace?
>>>>>>>>> somewhere in the audio device
>>>>>>>>> dialogue?
>>>>>>>>> It says 0 latency in there when you are setting your buffer 
>>>>>>>>> size, but it can'treally be that.
>>>>>>>>> There's always some since any audio system is a buffered system.
>>>>>>>>> but I took out everything and it keeps putting 32 back in there.
>>>>>>>>> so if we're really getting 32 buffers under wasapi,
>>>>>>>>> and if it's buffered similar to asio that's prety impressive 
>>>>>>>>> for a garden variety internal card.
>>>>>>>>> Don't make the mistake like I did of picking exclusive mode, 
>>>>>>>>> and especially if you only have one sound card in the system,
>>>>>>>>> your speech will go away and you might have to do sumersaults 
>>>>>>>>> to get it back.
>>>>>>>>> Luckily, I have lots of devices around here, every blindy 
>>>>>>>>> needs to keep around some class compliant devices for this 
>>>>>>>>> sort of issue,
>>>>>>>>> I pulled a good one the other day I was gonna disable the 
>>>>>>>>> intel sound for the
>>>>>>>>> high definition audio that comes on most display chips these 
>>>>>>>>> days, you don't need it and it's best not to be taking up 
>>>>>>>>> resources with an audio driver you'll probably never use.
>>>>>>>>> But I got in a hurry and disabled the main sound card on my 
>>>>>>>>> wife's laptop,
>>>>>>>>> so luckily I got speech going again with good old narrator and 
>>>>>>>>> a thumb drive like class compliant USB sound card.
>>>>>>>>> anything will work, like logitech headphones, or USB speakers, 
>>>>>>>>> so long as they're class compliant.
>>>>>>>>> Well, fun times again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/18/2016 11:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I tried out another USB interface I have here, and also 
>>>>>>>>>> the steinberg in sonar, and well, I think that for what ever 
>>>>>>>>>> reason, the audio system on this machine is dogging down in 
>>>>>>>>>> windows 10.
>>>>>>>>>> How ever, on my explorations, I've discovered somem 
>>>>>>>>>> interesting things.
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't think reaper really supported wdm as an option,
>>>>>>>>>> but when I was testing the presonus audiobox USB, it showed 
>>>>>>>>>> up, and lo and behold, it works like sonar does with class 
>>>>>>>>>> compliant devices now, and
>>>>>>>>>> you're able to change buffer sizes and such in a really 
>>>>>>>>>> accessible way.
>>>>>>>>>> Now wdm I think with class compliant devices is usually 
>>>>>>>>>> limited to 44.1 or 48k depending, and 16 bit, so I usually 
>>>>>>>>>> don't bother with it you get better results with asio anyway,
>>>>>>>>>> and it's usually more stable, and generally a more 
>>>>>>>>>> professional system, but it's nice to see that reaper now 
>>>>>>>>>> allows this sort of support for other driver modes.
>>>>>>>>>> Just for giggles, I'm going to see if it shows up for the 
>>>>>>>>>> internal card.
>>>>>>>>>> The other reason I'm interested in this generic mode of wdm 
>>>>>>>>>> is that the asio pannel in the audiobox USB didn't show a 
>>>>>>>>>> thing with NVDA so I'm going to have to try it with another 
>>>>>>>>>> screen reader,
>>>>>>>>>> because I can't change a thing in there, and it's set to some 
>>>>>>>>>> ridiculously relaxed place llike 512 or 1024 from the way it 
>>>>>>>>>> acts.
>>>>>>>>>> Fun times.
>>>>>>>>>>
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