[Rwp] different driver modes in reaper

Chris Belle cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Wed Apr 20 00:26:40 EDT 2016 

Ok here we go again for your learning wasapi wanderings.
Now this is really interesting.
I was able to combine two USB devices in wasapi exclusive polled mode.
The steinberg ur22 and the audiobox USB.
The steinberg is not a class compliant device.
But it will combine with the presonus audiobox USB
and act like one device.
The steinberg is the input device which can go up to 192 khz,
but in this mode it seems to be subject to the audiobox USB
which only goes up to 48k.
The midi ports on both devices are available to reaper, and that's more 
or less separate from the sound part of the units, and I get the low 
latency with midi, but audio going through both devices seems to inherit 
the latency of the incomming device,
even though it obeys the playback sampling characteristics and bit rate 
of the playback device.
One would think the recording device would dictate how high you can 
record, and it would just be truncated by the
playback device.
So now I'm going to flip them around the other way and see what happens.
So I am really curious as to which clock has control,
it's obvious which prees are being used, as the audio has input to the 
steinberg, but the playback device seems to control
the parameters of the limits of
the recording session.
So this is interesting inded.


On 4/19/2016 10:40 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
> But I guess it doesn't matter on the little devices because when you 
> plug in anything, it turns in to a compossit device anyway,
> you don't get the separate ins and outs,
> I'm not sure which device actually has the clock,
> but what is interesting is that when I plug a class compliant USB 
> device to the Ipad,
> and plug a mic or what ever in to it, and then plug headphones or 
> speakers in to the analog jack of the ipad, the USB device I plugged 
> in has control
> of the volume, even though the sound is going out of the Ipad analog out.
> This isn't true for true analog controls like on the audiobox usb,
> but for this little thumb drive
> like sound card via chip device which has up and down buttons on it 
> softwre controled volume I'm sure.
> so the question is does the dac in the Ipad have control of the sound 
> and handed the control off to the controls of the
> little external card, or is it the other way around?
> They've combined in some way.
> to act like one device.
>
> On 4/19/2016 10:28 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
>> If it were only that simple.
>> Serious audio guys will use an external dac anyway, interface, what 
>> have you.
>> I get it that an 8th inch jack unbalanced isn't the pro standard, but 
>> surprisingly clean and quiet on my Ipad.
>> But  my point is
>> compatibility with all the high end headphones out there which people 
>> might want to use, and forcing people to use another dac just to get 
>> an analog signal to said phones, or speakers will defeat the point of 
>> even having a sound chip on the apple.
>> In some ways at any rate, yes they will allow to go to their built in 
>> speakers or what ever, but you needed  buffered data of some kind to 
>> get out
>> to the outside world, through the lightning port which is just USB 
>> more or less,
>> so you loose the possibility of having the best latency from the 
>> built in chip even if it has to go out through that 8th inch jack.
>>
>> On 4/19/2016 9:56 PM, Snowman wrote:
>>> digital, digital, digital, digital,. digital.
>>> Analog is just old school.  Dull and boring, and not very 
>>> interesting either. Oh boy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at bluegrasspals.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:17 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rwp] different driver modes in reaper
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not a good move on apple's part in my oppinion.
>>>> I guess they'll have to have some sort of external dac or adapter 
>>>> so folks can run other than apple sanctioned or bluetooth
>>>> audio.
>>>> They really should at least leave you a standard headphone or 
>>>> speaker out.
>>>> I guess they'll have some sort of hub thing so you can charge your 
>>>> phone or what ever and plug the adapter for standard headphones in 
>>>> at the same time.
>>>> Meh.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/18/2016 7:52 PM, Bryan Smart wrote:
>>>>> True, and, since Apple is ditching analog audio I/O, I doubt it 
>>>>> will ever be fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 8:46 PM, Patrick Perdue 
>>>>>> <patrick at perdue.audio> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know what's kind of funny? Obviously, you'll get some cross 
>>>>>> talk with a combo mic/headphone jack like that, but it seems like 
>>>>>> the jacks/chips Apple use on all their stuff (iPhone, iPad, Macs) 
>>>>>> are some of the worst offenders. I have a junky low-end Acer 
>>>>>> Windows tablet with one of these combo jacks, and cross talk is 
>>>>>> almost, but not quite non-existent. With the same ear pods on my 
>>>>>> iPhone or Mac, it's noticeably much worse. The iStuff uses Cirrus 
>>>>>> Logic DAC's, while the cheap Acer uses an integrated Intel 
>>>>>> something-or-other. Of course, in this case, the D/A stage is not 
>>>>>> to blame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just an interesting thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/18/2016 8:04 PM, Bryan Smart wrote:
>>>>>>> I’ve been doing this for a while. Built-in sound device on my 
>>>>>>> Macbook Air works in WSAPI mode with practically no latency. You 
>>>>>>> can have junky sequencing sessions with just the laptop, virtual 
>>>>>>> MIDI keyboard, and earbuds plugged in. I’d actually consider 
>>>>>>> using the earbuds mic for something, but the combo earbuds jack 
>>>>>>> leaks sound from the earbuds back in to the mic, so I still must 
>>>>>>> plug in a dedicated mic to record a vocal/voice over. Oh well. 
>>>>>>> Can’t have it all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well wonders will never cease.
>>>>>>>> I think with windows 10 we've finally got something approaching 
>>>>>>>> note I said approaching core audio low latency with junky 
>>>>>>>> internal devices.
>>>>>>>> Just took wasapi for a spin,
>>>>>>>> and it works better on this machine than my nice steinberg 
>>>>>>>> interface, I think I'm going to go sit in the corner and cry, ha.
>>>>>>>> But serious now, this is great, it means you can now do casual 
>>>>>>>> things with the onboard hardware and work at low latencies, and 
>>>>>>>> that's not a reason to be trying to do all yourstudio stuff 
>>>>>>>> like that because plenty of reasons not to record with those 
>>>>>>>> little 8th inch jacks for pro stuf, and the internal realtech 
>>>>>>>> device is hardy a pro device, but mixing on the bus, or 
>>>>>>>> throwing together some casual midi tracks, this will make it 
>>>>>>>> nicer to do such things in windows.
>>>>>>>> finally,
>>>>>>>> wasapi was in windows 7 but it had lots of latency.
>>>>>>>> so I didn't solve my problem yet, but I did get a couple candy 
>>>>>>>> drops for upgrading to windows 10 so hey,
>>>>>>>> hurray for wasapi how ever far it get's us.
>>>>>>>> Now I'm really curious since I think these realtech cards will 
>>>>>>>> actually support up to 96k and 24 bit if it will actualy record 
>>>>>>>> like that does reaper give a round trip latency like sonar does 
>>>>>>>> anyplace?
>>>>>>>> somewhere in the audio device
>>>>>>>> dialogue?
>>>>>>>> It says 0 latency in there when you are setting your buffer 
>>>>>>>> size, but it can'treally be that.
>>>>>>>> There's always some since any audio system is a buffered system.
>>>>>>>> but I took out everything and it keeps putting 32 back in there.
>>>>>>>> so if we're really getting 32 buffers under wasapi,
>>>>>>>> and if it's buffered similar to asio that's prety impressive 
>>>>>>>> for a garden variety internal card.
>>>>>>>> Don't make the mistake like I did of picking exclusive mode, 
>>>>>>>> and especially if you only have one sound card in the system,
>>>>>>>> your speech will go away and you might have to do sumersaults 
>>>>>>>> to get it back.
>>>>>>>> Luckily, I have lots of devices around here, every blindy needs 
>>>>>>>> to keep around some class compliant devices for this sort of 
>>>>>>>> issue,
>>>>>>>> I pulled a good one the other day I was gonna disable the intel 
>>>>>>>> sound for the
>>>>>>>> high definition audio that comes on most display chips these 
>>>>>>>> days, you don't need it and it's best not to be taking up 
>>>>>>>> resources with an audio driver you'll probably never use.
>>>>>>>> But I got in a hurry and disabled the main sound card on my 
>>>>>>>> wife's laptop,
>>>>>>>> so luckily I got speech going again with good old narrator and 
>>>>>>>> a thumb drive like class compliant USB sound card.
>>>>>>>> anything will work, like logitech headphones, or USB speakers, 
>>>>>>>> so long as they're class compliant.
>>>>>>>> Well, fun times again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/18/2016 11:19 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Well, I tried out another USB interface I have here, and also 
>>>>>>>>> the steinberg in sonar, and well, I think that for what ever 
>>>>>>>>> reason, the audio system on this machine is dogging down in 
>>>>>>>>> windows 10.
>>>>>>>>> How ever, on my explorations, I've discovered somem 
>>>>>>>>> interesting things.
>>>>>>>>> I didn't think reaper really supported wdm as an option,
>>>>>>>>> but when I was testing the presonus audiobox USB, it showed 
>>>>>>>>> up, and lo and behold, it works like sonar does with class 
>>>>>>>>> compliant devices now, and
>>>>>>>>> you're able to change buffer sizes and such in a really 
>>>>>>>>> accessible way.
>>>>>>>>> Now wdm I think with class compliant devices is usually 
>>>>>>>>> limited to 44.1 or 48k depending, and 16 bit, so I usually 
>>>>>>>>> don't bother with it you get better results with asio anyway,
>>>>>>>>> and it's usually more stable, and generally a more 
>>>>>>>>> professional system, but it's nice to see that reaper now 
>>>>>>>>> allows this sort of support for other driver modes.
>>>>>>>>> Just for giggles, I'm going to see if it shows up for the 
>>>>>>>>> internal card.
>>>>>>>>> The other reason I'm interested in this generic mode of wdm is 
>>>>>>>>> that the asio pannel in the audiobox USB didn't show a thing 
>>>>>>>>> with NVDA so I'm going to have to try it with another screen 
>>>>>>>>> reader,
>>>>>>>>> because I can't change a thing in there, and  it's set to some 
>>>>>>>>> ridiculously relaxed place llike 512 or 1024 from the way it 
>>>>>>>>> acts.
>>>>>>>>> Fun times.
>>>>>>>>>
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