[Rwp] OSARA key map

Mon Feb 23 11:45:24 EST 2015

Hey Scot?

I think some of you power users of reaper should hang your shingle out 
for low priced tutoring.

That would solve the problem on many levels.

On 2/23/2015 8:35 AM, Scott Chesworth via RWP wrote:
> Hey Brandon,
>
> Hmmm, I think we just pretty much don't agree on the amount of support
> that should greet transitioning users, but that's ok, it happens. From
> my point of view, an easily accessible installer, ReadMe and some very
> basic training tutorials should be provided for OSARA. That's
> everything a newbie needs to get started. How far they progress beyond
> that is up to them. There are people here to help of course, but I'm
> not a fan of spoon feeding someone success. The reasons for that are
> two-fold. First, the current power users had to put in the hours to
> figure this stuff out, practice and get good at it. Sighted users have
> to do that too, so why should OSARA change the tradition? Second, it'd
> be an absolute time drainer to create training materials that go
> beyond the basics. Jamie has NVDA to work on, and most of the other
> users round these parts who possess enough knowledge to do a good job
> are also slogging away working on whatever their schtick happens to
> be. Dunno about anybody else, but I'm not in a position to justify
> taking two weeks out to create thorough audio training tutorials that
> cover everything I know about Reaper, because as much as I'd like them
> to exist, who'll pay for that time? Reaper is priced extremely
> competitively, the accessibility add-on is free, so there's probably
> not much hope of my breaking even on spending two weeks doing that
> instead of two weeks mixing, editing, or recording for paying clients.
> This is before we consider the nightmare that it would be attempting
> to protect yourself against those tutorials being purchased once and
> passed around willy-nilly. I suppose you're basing some of these wants
> on the training provided by CakeTalking, but man, those training
> materials are a huge component of why that product costs what it does.
>
> Probably worth pointing out here that the types of materials you're
> after do exist to some extent for sighted users. In my case and I'd
> bet a whole bunch of other peoples too, I used YouTube videos, the
> Reaper manual, and articles I'd turned up on Google to figure out a
> lot of what I know now. I still do when I'm stuck or looking for a
> neater approach to achieving something. None of it is written from a
> blindness perspective of course, but if you understand the concepts,
> there's a lot that can be taken from the mainstream material. That's
> another reason why I'm a strong advocate of us using the native GUI
> and actions that already exist as much as possible. The keymap just
> happens to be an exception to the rule, because the native one just
> happens to suck for everyone, whether they use a screen reader or not.
>
> Btw, I still use Pro Tools here for a few reasons, but most of them
> are personal choice rather than out of necessity. Macs and PT are
> widely used the world over, so I often receive songs to work on in
> that format from DIY bands. It doesn't really make sense to burn time
> bringing it over to Reaper when PT is just as usable nowadays. The two
> programs are very, very different beasts. I've never tested it
> scientifically, but my guess would be that the Pro Tools concepts and
> keymap allows me to edit faster there, but then comping is definitely
> faster and more elegant in Reaper. Throwing up a mix is probably
> quicker for me in Reaper, but then in PT we've got good control over
> automation and a very consistent interface for controlling plugins, so
> if it's likely to be a complex job with a lot of mix revisions, I tend
> to gravitate toward PT. For my bands stuff, I'm firmly in Reaper,
> because as much as I like PT, I really dislike VoiceOver as a screen
> reader at the moment, especially when working with people watching
> over my shoulder. For my own compositions, it'll be Reaper for rough
> ideas, PT for anything that requires decent softsynths because I just
> don't have any of those in Reaper. As you can tell, it really depends
> on the job at hand. Tbh, I could probably survive with one DAW easily
> enough, but past experience has taught me not to put all my eggs into
> one basket when it comes to accessibility, so I make a point of
> dusting off both DAWs and maintaining a decent working knowledge of
> both.
>
> Hth a bit
>
> Scott
>
> On 2/23/15, Brandon Keith Biggs via RWP <rwp at bluegrasspals.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> What is Reaper?
>> A thing to record.
>> That is the thing first and foremost that I would like to do in Reaper,
>> record.
>> I have sonar, but sonar has many many problems, first being that it
>> needs an external sound card to do even basic editing. I can't have an
>> external sound card most of the time, so that takes Sonar out of the
>> running 90% of the time.
>> I use Audacity currently, but audacity does not have midi and it is also
>> not really built for handling many many tracks at once. I find it really
>> frustrating in audacity when I make an edit and it changes all the
>> tracks rather than the track I was on. This happens all the time.
>> If Reaper is so much different than Sonar and Audacity, then it is even
>> more important that videos be made saying the differences and as much
>> common ground be reached as possible. Because as more and more people
>> switch to NVDA, Reaper will be the DAW people first look at if they wish
>> anything more advanced than Audacity or goldwave, and they will be
>> coming from those two DAWs if not Sonar.
>>
>> In regards to the virtual view thing, There must be a place that gives
>> info somewhere on the track for sighted users, otherwise there would be
>> no way to arm, unarm, view the levels and all of that kind of thing. I
>> would just like easy access to it.
>>
>> BTW, why do you use Pro Tools rather than Reaper? What makes Pro Tools
>> better in some ways than Reaper?
>> thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
>> On 2/23/2015 1:51 PM, Scott Chesworth via RWP wrote:
>>> Hey Brandon,
>>>
>>> A few thoughts based on comments in the previous few emails:
>>>
>>> With ReaAccess, left and right scrubs, CTRL+Left and CTRL+Right moves
>>> to the previous or next item. It is my guess that this will probably
>>> end up staying the same in OSARA because it seems logical enough, and
>>> I can't really think why you'd struggle to remember that.
>>>
>>> I'd vote no to bringing back the ReaAccess virtual view thingy unless
>>> there's a demonstrable need, because it's better to use and evolve
>>> with a program's native GUI wherever possible IMO. I'd go further and
>>> vote not on your life to adding sound effects to OSARA. Having a
>>> screen reader chattering away when I'm trying to listen to audio is
>>> distracting enough, let alone extra beeps.
>>>
>>> You might find the transition easier if you can put a lid on comparing
>>> Reaper to Sonar or other DAWs. I know that's human nature to some
>>> extent, especially when one is frustrated at a sudden lack of
>>> productivity, but for better or worse, Reaper itself is a little
>>> unusual. It just won't fit a lot of the navigation concepts you've
>>> become accustomed to, and it's kinda not the job of an accessibility
>>> addon to change that. I'm saying that from experience, as I never
>>> managed to even slightly get to grips with Sonar when I tried, due to
>>> me still really wanting to be using Pro Tools the way I knew how. By
>>> the time I picked up Reaper, the accessibility of the DAW I knew best
>>> had been at a standstill for so long that I'd stopped making
>>> comparisons, and I found that learning it came easier. Reaper
>>> certainly isn't a program that's easy to pick up and be making good
>>> stuff happen in the first 5 minutes, so I believe it was less weight
>>> on comparisons that did the trick here. Now that I can use both DAWs
>>> fairly well, I split my time between them according to what suits the
>>> project at hand, so the comparisons are helpful as a means of figuring
>>> out where I can be most productive that day, but to start with they're
>>> only gonna hold you back and leave you frustrated. Most stuff that's
>>> truly powerful requires some investment, be it money or in this case
>>> time. This is true in Reaper whether you're blind or sighted, so
>>> again, I wouldn't want to water things down too much just to steel
>>> away a few Sonar users. Looking at your keymap suggestions, your
>>> preference for the grid matrix approach, your liking of beeps to
>>> signify things, CakeTalking might be the most comfortable place for
>>> you. There's nothing wrong with that man. They're all just tools at
>>> the end of the day.
>>>
>>> Hth take the edge off
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/23/15, Brandon Keith Biggs via RWP <rwp at bluegrasspals.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Then you need to make it clear how to change the different items on the
>>>> track by hand.
>>>> I often can't remember what the key-stroke is for each item, so when I
>>>> am in the application and I need a quick reminder I arrow to the element
>>>> on the track and here is what my first inclination is to do:
>>>> 1. press left and right arrow as that is what it is in Sonar.
>>>> 2. press the applications key
>>>> 3. press the alt button and look for a menu called "track" and arrow
>>>> through that.
>>>>
>>>> If there is no way to arm, solo, mute or do all the track's items in any
>>>> one of those 3 places, I start to get frustrated.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using left and right to move through the track, and you don't
>>>> wish ctrl+left and right to move by larger increments, they could also
>>>> move between items in a track.
>>>> But some way, I need to see the items in a track with their keystrokes
>>>> inside the program.
>>>>
>>>> The Ray access keystrokes are horrible because they are not logical for
>>>> someone who is coming from other programs.
>>>> Those who are using ray access know how to make their own key maps, so
>>>> they should and probably will.
>>>> I also could not figure out how to do a basic recording and editing
>>>> using Ray Access, so I just gave up.
>>>> In my opinion, the only thing good about Ray access is the simulation of
>>>> the track items and the menus.
>>>> thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
>>>> On 2/23/2015 11:56 AM, James Teh via RWP wrote:
>>>>> On 23/02/2015 8:47 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs via RWP wrote:
>>>>>> left and right arrow is move through the different options on each
>>>>>> track and make it loop with a sound beeping when you get back to the
>>>>>> name field
>>>>> I've been meaning to mention this before; thanks for reminding me! :)
>>>>> In REAPER, left and right are assigned to move a small amount back or
>>>>> forward. When stopped, they scrub. I would absolutely not want to see
>>>>> this changed; IMO, being able to scrub so easily is one of the best
>>>>> things about REAPER.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's also worth noting that REAPER doesn't really have a concept of
>>>>> navigating between fields or options on a track. ReaAccess implemented
>>>>> its own virtual mode for this, but it's entirely "fake". REAPER
>>>>> actually sort of exposes track and envelope controls using
>>>>> accessibility APIs, so once they fix the bugs (or we work around them
>>>>> in screen readers), you'll be able to use your screen reader's object
>>>>> navigation (or equivalent) functionality to move between these fields.
>>>>> I think this is probably the better way forward for this functionality
>>>>> in the longrun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> James Teh
>>>>> Email/MSN Messenger/Jabber:jamie at jantrid.net
>>>>> Web site:http://www.jantrid.net/
>>>>> Twitter: jcsteh
>>>>>
>>>>>
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