[Rwp] OSARA key map

Mon Feb 23 09:35:18 EST 2015

Hey Brandon,

Hmmm, I think we just pretty much don't agree on the amount of support
that should greet transitioning users, but that's ok, it happens. From
my point of view, an easily accessible installer, ReadMe and some very
basic training tutorials should be provided for OSARA. That's
everything a newbie needs to get started. How far they progress beyond
that is up to them. There are people here to help of course, but I'm
not a fan of spoon feeding someone success. The reasons for that are
two-fold. First, the current power users had to put in the hours to
figure this stuff out, practice and get good at it. Sighted users have
to do that too, so why should OSARA change the tradition? Second, it'd
be an absolute time drainer to create training materials that go
beyond the basics. Jamie has NVDA to work on, and most of the other
users round these parts who possess enough knowledge to do a good job
are also slogging away working on whatever their schtick happens to
be. Dunno about anybody else, but I'm not in a position to justify
taking two weeks out to create thorough audio training tutorials that
cover everything I know about Reaper, because as much as I'd like them
to exist, who'll pay for that time? Reaper is priced extremely
competitively, the accessibility add-on is free, so there's probably
not much hope of my breaking even on spending two weeks doing that
instead of two weeks mixing, editing, or recording for paying clients.
This is before we consider the nightmare that it would be attempting
to protect yourself against those tutorials being purchased once and
passed around willy-nilly. I suppose you're basing some of these wants
on the training provided by CakeTalking, but man, those training
materials are a huge component of why that product costs what it does.

Probably worth pointing out here that the types of materials you're
after do exist to some extent for sighted users. In my case and I'd
bet a whole bunch of other peoples too, I used YouTube videos, the
Reaper manual, and articles I'd turned up on Google to figure out a
lot of what I know now. I still do when I'm stuck or looking for a
neater approach to achieving something. None of it is written from a
blindness perspective of course, but if you understand the concepts,
there's a lot that can be taken from the mainstream material. That's
another reason why I'm a strong advocate of us using the native GUI
and actions that already exist as much as possible. The keymap just
happens to be an exception to the rule, because the native one just
happens to suck for everyone, whether they use a screen reader or not.

Btw, I still use Pro Tools here for a few reasons, but most of them
are personal choice rather than out of necessity. Macs and PT are
widely used the world over, so I often receive songs to work on in
that format from DIY bands. It doesn't really make sense to burn time
bringing it over to Reaper when PT is just as usable nowadays. The two
programs are very, very different beasts. I've never tested it
scientifically, but my guess would be that the Pro Tools concepts and
keymap allows me to edit faster there, but then comping is definitely
faster and more elegant in Reaper. Throwing up a mix is probably
quicker for me in Reaper, but then in PT we've got good control over
automation and a very consistent interface for controlling plugins, so
if it's likely to be a complex job with a lot of mix revisions, I tend
to gravitate toward PT. For my bands stuff, I'm firmly in Reaper,
because as much as I like PT, I really dislike VoiceOver as a screen
reader at the moment, especially when working with people watching
over my shoulder. For my own compositions, it'll be Reaper for rough
ideas, PT for anything that requires decent softsynths because I just
don't have any of those in Reaper. As you can tell, it really depends
on the job at hand. Tbh, I could probably survive with one DAW easily
enough, but past experience has taught me not to put all my eggs into
one basket when it comes to accessibility, so I make a point of
dusting off both DAWs and maintaining a decent working knowledge of
both.

Hth a bit

Scott

On 2/23/15, Brandon Keith Biggs via RWP <rwp at bluegrasspals.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> What is Reaper?
> A thing to record.
> That is the thing first and foremost that I would like to do in Reaper,
> record.
> I have sonar, but sonar has many many problems, first being that it
> needs an external sound card to do even basic editing. I can't have an
> external sound card most of the time, so that takes Sonar out of the
> running 90% of the time.
> I use Audacity currently, but audacity does not have midi and it is also
> not really built for handling many many tracks at once. I find it really
> frustrating in audacity when I make an edit and it changes all the
> tracks rather than the track I was on. This happens all the time.
> If Reaper is so much different than Sonar and Audacity, then it is even
> more important that videos be made saying the differences and as much
> common ground be reached as possible. Because as more and more people
> switch to NVDA, Reaper will be the DAW people first look at if they wish
> anything more advanced than Audacity or goldwave, and they will be
> coming from those two DAWs if not Sonar.
>
> In regards to the virtual view thing, There must be a place that gives
> info somewhere on the track for sighted users, otherwise there would be
> no way to arm, unarm, view the levels and all of that kind of thing. I
> would just like easy access to it.
>
> BTW, why do you use Pro Tools rather than Reaper? What makes Pro Tools
> better in some ways than Reaper?
> thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
> On 2/23/2015 1:51 PM, Scott Chesworth via RWP wrote:
>> Hey Brandon,
>>
>> A few thoughts based on comments in the previous few emails:
>>
>> With ReaAccess, left and right scrubs, CTRL+Left and CTRL+Right moves
>> to the previous or next item. It is my guess that this will probably
>> end up staying the same in OSARA because it seems logical enough, and
>> I can't really think why you'd struggle to remember that.
>>
>> I'd vote no to bringing back the ReaAccess virtual view thingy unless
>> there's a demonstrable need, because it's better to use and evolve
>> with a program's native GUI wherever possible IMO. I'd go further and
>> vote not on your life to adding sound effects to OSARA. Having a
>> screen reader chattering away when I'm trying to listen to audio is
>> distracting enough, let alone extra beeps.
>>
>> You might find the transition easier if you can put a lid on comparing
>> Reaper to Sonar or other DAWs. I know that's human nature to some
>> extent, especially when one is frustrated at a sudden lack of
>> productivity, but for better or worse, Reaper itself is a little
>> unusual. It just won't fit a lot of the navigation concepts you've
>> become accustomed to, and it's kinda not the job of an accessibility
>> addon to change that. I'm saying that from experience, as I never
>> managed to even slightly get to grips with Sonar when I tried, due to
>> me still really wanting to be using Pro Tools the way I knew how. By
>> the time I picked up Reaper, the accessibility of the DAW I knew best
>> had been at a standstill for so long that I'd stopped making
>> comparisons, and I found that learning it came easier. Reaper
>> certainly isn't a program that's easy to pick up and be making good
>> stuff happen in the first 5 minutes, so I believe it was less weight
>> on comparisons that did the trick here. Now that I can use both DAWs
>> fairly well, I split my time between them according to what suits the
>> project at hand, so the comparisons are helpful as a means of figuring
>> out where I can be most productive that day, but to start with they're
>> only gonna hold you back and leave you frustrated. Most stuff that's
>> truly powerful requires some investment, be it money or in this case
>> time. This is true in Reaper whether you're blind or sighted, so
>> again, I wouldn't want to water things down too much just to steel
>> away a few Sonar users. Looking at your keymap suggestions, your
>> preference for the grid matrix approach, your liking of beeps to
>> signify things, CakeTalking might be the most comfortable place for
>> you. There's nothing wrong with that man. They're all just tools at
>> the end of the day.
>>
>> Hth take the edge off
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On 2/23/15, Brandon Keith Biggs via RWP <rwp at bluegrasspals.com> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> Then you need to make it clear how to change the different items on the
>>> track by hand.
>>> I often can't remember what the key-stroke is for each item, so when I
>>> am in the application and I need a quick reminder I arrow to the element
>>> on the track and here is what my first inclination is to do:
>>> 1. press left and right arrow as that is what it is in Sonar.
>>> 2. press the applications key
>>> 3. press the alt button and look for a menu called "track" and arrow
>>> through that.
>>>
>>> If there is no way to arm, solo, mute or do all the track's items in any
>>> one of those 3 places, I start to get frustrated.
>>>
>>> If you are using left and right to move through the track, and you don't
>>> wish ctrl+left and right to move by larger increments, they could also
>>> move between items in a track.
>>> But some way, I need to see the items in a track with their keystrokes
>>> inside the program.
>>>
>>> The Ray access keystrokes are horrible because they are not logical for
>>> someone who is coming from other programs.
>>> Those who are using ray access know how to make their own key maps, so
>>> they should and probably will.
>>> I also could not figure out how to do a basic recording and editing
>>> using Ray Access, so I just gave up.
>>> In my opinion, the only thing good about Ray access is the simulation of
>>> the track items and the menus.
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
>>> On 2/23/2015 11:56 AM, James Teh via RWP wrote:
>>>> On 23/02/2015 8:47 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs via RWP wrote:
>>>>> left and right arrow is move through the different options on each
>>>>> track and make it loop with a sound beeping when you get back to the
>>>>> name field
>>>> I've been meaning to mention this before; thanks for reminding me! :)
>>>> In REAPER, left and right are assigned to move a small amount back or
>>>> forward. When stopped, they scrub. I would absolutely not want to see
>>>> this changed; IMO, being able to scrub so easily is one of the best
>>>> things about REAPER.
>>>>
>>>> It's also worth noting that REAPER doesn't really have a concept of
>>>> navigating between fields or options on a track. ReaAccess implemented
>>>> its own virtual mode for this, but it's entirely "fake". REAPER
>>>> actually sort of exposes track and envelope controls using
>>>> accessibility APIs, so once they fix the bugs (or we work around them
>>>> in screen readers), you'll be able to use your screen reader's object
>>>> navigation (or equivalent) functionality to move between these fields.
>>>> I think this is probably the better way forward for this functionality
>>>> in the longrun.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jamie
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> James Teh
>>>> Email/MSN Messenger/Jabber:jamie at jantrid.net
>>>> Web site:http://www.jantrid.net/
>>>> Twitter: jcsteh
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> http://bluegrasspals.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp
>>>
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