[RWP] Reaper vs. ProTools?

Chris Belle cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Sat May 17 11:40:08 EDT 2014 

According to a programmer friend of mine who has sort of poked at 
reaccess, there are lots of things that need to be changed in there, 
some examples are hard wired code that should be environmental 
variables, that's why7 window-eyes got broken in part, I think a 
complete re-write is what's necessary and that's a big job.


On 5/15/2014 4:40 PM, Derek Lane wrote:
> Fair point, however, would fixing the problems which block reaaccess 
> from performing as it once did make a future reright of a reaaccess 
> equivalent easier to do?
> After all, we'd learn more about the guts of reaper when we learned 
> what underlying change/changes  did what it did.
>
> On 5/15/2014 3:41 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
>> Don't forget some of the things that are broken are broken more for 
>> one screenreader than another.
>>
>> In the masster bus, I can't remember exactly what now, but I was able 
>> to see some things with window-eyes I couldn't with nvda.
>>
>> But wasn't there a problem with wineyes and 64 bit reaper
>> too?
>>
>> So we have those variables to deal with.
>>
>>
>> On 5/15/2014 2:30 PM, Derek Lane wrote:
>>> Good idea, which leads me to another prospective.
>>> Lets answer the following before talking to the reaper/sws people
>>> 1.  Does more things work than are broken in the latest reaper?
>>> I'd say so.
>>> 2.  What are the things that no longer work?
>>> I know all of the menus accessible via the applications and 
>>> shift+applications key no longer work.  I'm sure there are other 
>>> things as well, but I can't think of them at the moment.  These 
>>> menus not working reliably is annoying for me, as some projects 
>>> require lots of routing.
>>>
>>> 3.  What changed between reaper 3.78 and 4.x which makes reaaccess 
>>> no longer function as it should?
>>> 4. Could a script/plugin/option in reapers preferences exists which 
>>> reverts that part of reaper to its behavior in 3.78?
>>>
>>> If we can figure the stuff out, we may have better luck getting help 
>>> from those who are willing, because no one has to do the work to 
>>> create what already exists.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex H." 
>>> <linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 2:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper vs. ProTools?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Right on Derek.
>>>>
>>>> What we really need is a way to collaborate and get a document drafted
>>>> with the technical info to then give the Reaper guys. "Hey dudes, can
>>>> you look into this stuff?" And another for SWS to see what they can
>>>> do. Tried to do an accessibility checklist for the Mac version of
>>>> Reaper, but never finished it. Mostly spend my time on Windows for
>>>> serious audio, but wanna see both improve (naturally).
>>>>
>>>> So who's gonna step up and help get this rolling? I can be part of it,
>>>> but I ain't doing this alone...there's more techy guys than me on this
>>>> list who could dig into reaScript, etc, who have more programming
>>>> knowledge than I, and so on. Less barking, more biting.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>> On 5/15/14, Derek Lane <derek at pdaudio.net> wrote:
>>>>> I'm one of those people that, in certain areas, know enough to 
>>>>> know that
>>>>> they have very little clue as to how things actually work.
>>>>> However, I spoke to the developers of sws about a year ago and 
>>>>> they said
>>>>> they'd be more than willing to help with an accessible solution.
>>>>> The problem is that I didn't know enough at the time to describe
>>>>> everything reaaccess did, and what we needed.
>>>>> If you or someone on this list had the time to open a dialog with the
>>>>> sws community, we may find that 90% of the work has already been 
>>>>> done.
>>>>> For example, reaconsole, part of the SWS add-on, allows you to type
>>>>> various commands to do things like set tracks to record from 
>>>>> different
>>>>> inputs, select, solo, and mute specific tracks, etc.
>>>>> What it doesn't allow is for one to query the console to determine 
>>>>> the
>>>>> existing settings.
>>>>> I know that SWS can get information from reaper, or it wouldn't be 
>>>>> able
>>>>> to perform some of its other functions, which was a concern I had
>>>>> initially.
>>>>> If it wern't possible to get information from reaper, then access 
>>>>> would
>>>>> be very limited, but as I said, sws and even reaaccess are
>>>>> demonstrations that we can read and write from/too reaper and its 
>>>>> settings.
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    On 5/14/2014 11:57 PM, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Derek!
>>>>>> It is true that Reaper's API is very, very good. The issue is 
>>>>>> that there
>>>>>> isn't much help to go round and, to my taste, it's a bit messy 
>>>>>> too. Once
>>>>>> you have gone through the meriads of functions available to you as a
>>>>>> developer, only then you ralize the power of Reaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great DAW though, I agree!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from a Mobile device
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 14, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Derek Lane <derek at pdaudio.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The thing about reaaccess is that it should be easier now, more 
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever, to rebuild.
>>>>>>> The latest versions of reaper have added all kinds of neat 
>>>>>>> toys/tools for
>>>>>>> those who play with API's and there are several universal speech 
>>>>>>> API's
>>>>>>> that talk to all of the major screen readers.
>>>>>>> So it stands to reason that one could, given the skills, write 
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> that queries reaper for specific information, and actions to modify
>>>>>>> aspects of the current project/reapers settings in some cases.
>>>>>>> Build a few dialog boxes, and there you go.
>>>>>>> I say this as if its as easy as making an API sandwitch, but I know
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>> Obvious something like SWS shows the power of the reaper API, 
>>>>>>> but it has
>>>>>>> a development team, and lots of community support which keeps it 
>>>>>>> alive.
>>>>>>> If someone on this list knows enough about programming to 
>>>>>>> articulate what
>>>>>>> we need, chances are that someone exists who would be willing to 
>>>>>>> give it
>>>>>>> a try.
>>>>>>> In this message, said person may be asked to specify all actions 
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> reaaccess provides, but  perhaps decompiling the reaaccess dll 
>>>>>>> file would
>>>>>>> help.
>>>>>>> I know that a decompiler will render code that can be compiled 
>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>> and not that which was initially written, but who knows... I don't.
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2014 1:36 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am very aware of the good work you and Patrick do for those guys.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that goes right in line with my comments, it's mostly audio
>>>>>>>> editing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reaper has that covered very well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But not so well atleast with my take, on midi, and automation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Too many holes in the puzzle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that's the difference between a 50 dollar daw, and a 
>>>>>>>> hundreds of
>>>>>>>> dollars one with lots of content, and
>>>>>>>> synths and mastering fx, and so on and so forth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like comparing a motorcycle to a full blown silver eagle bus, 
>>>>>>>> both will
>>>>>>>> get you there, and maybe the motorcycle can go places the bus 
>>>>>>>> can't but
>>>>>>>> the bus can carry everything including the library, the picnic 
>>>>>>>> basket,
>>>>>>>> and all the power tools included 'grin'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Still I wish sonar edited audio like reaper did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why can't we have it all in one place?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2014 10:25 PM, Derek Lane wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If you want to see work with reaper, see most of the content 
>>>>>>>>> provided
>>>>>>>>> by the serotalk podcast network.
>>>>>>>>> Patrick Perdue and I use reaper as one of the primary tools 
>>>>>>>>> for editing
>>>>>>>>> and production, as each person on the various podcasts are on 
>>>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>>>> tracks. This lets us sort individual audio anomalies in the 
>>>>>>>>> mix, rather
>>>>>>>>> than try to rescue a bad mixdown.
>>>>>>>>> I know a few people who have done some music in reaper as 
>>>>>>>>> well, but
>>>>>>>>> sadly most of them haven't made there work widely available.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Belle"
>>>>>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 9:51 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper vs. ProTools?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dancing dots still sells
>>>>>>>>>> sonar 8.5 if you want to go the official route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We face this sort of situation on all fronts, using older 
>>>>>>>>>> versions
>>>>>>>>>> sometimes for accessibility, and the tools for sonar have 
>>>>>>>>>> been updated
>>>>>>>>>> way more recently than our poor little abandonware reaccess has.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It depends on what you want to do though.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lots of protools users are using older versions too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, each solution has it's pros and cons, just saying the 
>>>>>>>>>> path
>>>>>>>>>> most well traveled and maybe the easiest with the most real 
>>>>>>>>>> help and
>>>>>>>>>> documentation and all the stuff a beginner needs is 
>>>>>>>>>> definitely sonar,
>>>>>>>>>> never mind wha the fan boys say.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I haven't used protools yet, but I keep my ear to the ground, 
>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>> just haven't seen the work come out of that corner yet, same 
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> reaper, other than a few exceptions, most are doing audio 
>>>>>>>>>> editing,
>>>>>>>>>> anyway, i hope reaper really takes off one day, and someone 
>>>>>>>>>> picks up
>>>>>>>>>> where the Russian dude let of, but you know how it goes, it's 
>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>> time and money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Will get with you privately and explain more.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2014 6:42 PM, John Chilelli wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  From what I have heard and read, I would have to agree with 
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> concerning Sonar.  But the problem with Sonar is what you 
>>>>>>>>>>> have sited
>>>>>>>>>>> here.  That is, that the bestg accessible version of Sonar 
>>>>>>>>>>> is v8.5
>>>>>>>>>>> and where does one get hold of that version? As for my personal
>>>>>>>>>>> needs, Reaper would do just fine, but for a newbie like me, 
>>>>>>>>>>> it's like
>>>>>>>>>>> stairing up at Mt. Everest with only summer jogging gear to 
>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> with.  I got a hold of Sonar v5 recently for the asking just 
>>>>>>>>>>> to look
>>>>>>>>>>> at it, but didn't know where to begin with it using 
>>>>>>>>>>> Window-Eyes 8.4.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2014 4:30 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reaper has a lot of potential but sort of enjoys a similar 
>>>>>>>>>>>> status in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the recording world that linux does to windows and mac, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>> priced don't need much to play, can do a lot of everyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>> has to roll
>>>>>>>>>>>> their own kind of thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pt has gotten better, but most blind folks who are doing 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the best
>>>>>>>>>>>> work I think are still using sonar even though most of us 
>>>>>>>>>>>> are using
>>>>>>>>>>>> an older version because there's been the most development 
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>> you have caketalking plus jsonar, plus nvda and window-eyes 
>>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>> have rudimentary access.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And it's a full blown daw, pt and sonar both come with lots 
>>>>>>>>>>>> of soft
>>>>>>>>>>>> synths and loop libraries, and mastering tools, reaper has the
>>>>>>>>>>>> basics but you have to buy everything third party and then 
>>>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>> access for it, most of the devs who are doing stuff for us 
>>>>>>>>>>>> are doing
>>>>>>>>>>>> it for sonar for the obvious reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I do a lot with midi, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> our buddy Roy says he's groovy with midi and reaper, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>> most of us
>>>>>>>>>>>> using reaper are doing audio editing and item based 
>>>>>>>>>>>> automation by
>>>>>>>>>>>> splitting clips and such,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I find sonar's midi implementation second to none, bu then it
>>>>>>>>>>>> started off as a midi sequencer anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Midi has just been iimproved in pt, don't know how much, i 
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't own
>>>>>>>>>>>> a mac as of yet,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I have been doing professional work for years with 
>>>>>>>>>>>> sonar and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the easiest path if you are beginning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wish I could melt reaper and sonar together because I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> really like
>>>>>>>>>>>> the way reaper cross fades audio, some audio operations 
>>>>>>>>>>>> with sonar
>>>>>>>>>>>> are very tedious, but doing things like making tempo maps 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and such
>>>>>>>>>>>> are really nice with sonar, and the time and pitch stretching
>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithms in sonar, radius is vastly superior to reaper or
>>>>>>>>>>>> protools
>>>>>>>>>>>> elastique.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But it takes more time to process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so it's all down to how you like to work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are a couple of people here who have really 
>>>>>>>>>>>> customized reaper
>>>>>>>>>>>> with the extra extensions who are getting the most out of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> again, it's like the linux thing, it depends on how much 
>>>>>>>>>>>> time you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have, and how deeply you want to dive, reaccess is dead,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it abandon ware, and any new reaper developoment will have 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to come
>>>>>>>>>>>> from elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes a person has to make their own way, for instance, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> a buddy
>>>>>>>>>>>> of mine paid a programmer to make cubass work for him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I paid the dev of nvda to make sonar work a bit better for me
>>>>>>>>>>>> because I don't like using jaws all the time, and so on and so
>>>>>>>>>>>> forth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Protools may not enjoy quite the monopoly it once did in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the world,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I hardly think reaper is going to replace it any time 
>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> still the defacto standard in many places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reaper is like the poor kid on the block but with a huge 
>>>>>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>>>>>> that hasn't been realized yet, atleast in our corner, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it has a
>>>>>>>>>>>> great programming api and someone with the skill and time 
>>>>>>>>>>>> could make
>>>>>>>>>>>> it sing and dance for us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> but there again is the rub, jaws scripting language sucks 
>>>>>>>>>>>> compared
>>>>>>>>>>>> to a real programming language, but because it's been so well
>>>>>>>>>>>> develooped
>>>>>>>>>>>> we enjoy much more functionallity with jaws that with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies which haven't been developed yet from say nvda 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ppython
>>>>>>>>>>>> or window-eyes whicfh can use any programming language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so there you have it, pick your poison, or pick several of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> them and
>>>>>>>>>>>> milk them for all they're worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2014 1:26 PM, Jes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, guys, I'm probably going to start a big controversy 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about now, and you'll forgive me, but I have to know this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the fact that Reaper on the Mac is not accessible, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proTools is, What are the advantages of Reaper over 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ProTools? I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really getting interested in going into the music business 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> real, not just as a hobby, and I'm just wondering the pros 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cons
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of each environment. Is Reaper going to kill ProTools one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> day and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> become the industry leader?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I have a question about the reaaccess.com website. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Ivan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't around anymore, how is the sight still running? and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer might it be around? Is this list run off of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> freelists or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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