[RWP] Reaper vs. ProTools?

Derek Lane derek at pdaudio.net
Thu May 15 17:40:48 EDT 2014 

Fair point, however, would fixing the problems which block reaaccess 
from performing as it once did make a future reright of a reaaccess 
equivalent easier to do?
After all, we'd learn more about the guts of reaper when we learned what 
underlying change/changes  did what it did.

On 5/15/2014 3:41 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
> Don't forget some of the things that are broken are broken more for 
> one screenreader than another.
>
> In the masster bus, I can't remember exactly what now, but I was able 
> to see some things with window-eyes I couldn't with nvda.
>
> But wasn't there a problem with wineyes and 64 bit reaper
> too?
>
> So we have those variables to deal with.
>
>
> On 5/15/2014 2:30 PM, Derek Lane wrote:
>> Good idea, which leads me to another prospective.
>> Lets answer the following before talking to the reaper/sws people
>> 1.  Does more things work than are broken in the latest reaper?
>> I'd say so.
>> 2.  What are the things that no longer work?
>> I know all of the menus accessible via the applications and 
>> shift+applications key no longer work.  I'm sure there are other 
>> things as well, but I can't think of them at the moment.  These menus 
>> not working reliably is annoying for me, as some projects require 
>> lots of routing.
>>
>> 3.  What changed between reaper 3.78 and 4.x which makes reaaccess no 
>> longer function as it should?
>> 4. Could a script/plugin/option in reapers preferences exists which 
>> reverts that part of reaper to its behavior in 3.78?
>>
>> If we can figure the stuff out, we may have better luck getting help 
>> from those who are willing, because no one has to do the work to 
>> create what already exists.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex H." <linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com>
>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 2:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper vs. ProTools?
>>
>>
>>> Right on Derek.
>>>
>>> What we really need is a way to collaborate and get a document drafted
>>> with the technical info to then give the Reaper guys. "Hey dudes, can
>>> you look into this stuff?" And another for SWS to see what they can
>>> do. Tried to do an accessibility checklist for the Mac version of
>>> Reaper, but never finished it. Mostly spend my time on Windows for
>>> serious audio, but wanna see both improve (naturally).
>>>
>>> So who's gonna step up and help get this rolling? I can be part of it,
>>> but I ain't doing this alone...there's more techy guys than me on this
>>> list who could dig into reaScript, etc, who have more programming
>>> knowledge than I, and so on. Less barking, more biting.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> On 5/15/14, Derek Lane <derek at pdaudio.net> wrote:
>>>> I'm one of those people that, in certain areas, know enough to know 
>>>> that
>>>> they have very little clue as to how things actually work.
>>>> However, I spoke to the developers of sws about a year ago and they 
>>>> said
>>>> they'd be more than willing to help with an accessible solution.
>>>> The problem is that I didn't know enough at the time to describe
>>>> everything reaaccess did, and what we needed.
>>>> If you or someone on this list had the time to open a dialog with the
>>>> sws community, we may find that 90% of the work has already been done.
>>>> For example, reaconsole, part of the SWS add-on, allows you to type
>>>> various commands to do things like set tracks to record from different
>>>> inputs, select, solo, and mute specific tracks, etc.
>>>> What it doesn't allow is for one to query the console to determine the
>>>> existing settings.
>>>> I know that SWS can get information from reaper, or it wouldn't be 
>>>> able
>>>> to perform some of its other functions, which was a concern I had
>>>> initially.
>>>> If it wern't possible to get information from reaper, then access 
>>>> would
>>>> be very limited, but as I said, sws and even reaaccess are
>>>> demonstrations that we can read and write from/too reaper and its 
>>>> settings.
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    On 5/14/2014 11:57 PM, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>>>>> Hey Derek!
>>>>> It is true that Reaper's API is very, very good. The issue is that 
>>>>> there
>>>>> isn't much help to go round and, to my taste, it's a bit messy 
>>>>> too. Once
>>>>> you have gone through the meriads of functions available to you as a
>>>>> developer, only then you ralize the power of Reaper.
>>>>>
>>>>> Great DAW though, I agree!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from a Mobile device
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 14, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Derek Lane <derek at pdaudio.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The thing about reaaccess is that it should be easier now, more than
>>>>>> ever, to rebuild.
>>>>>> The latest versions of reaper have added all kinds of neat 
>>>>>> toys/tools for
>>>>>> those who play with API's and there are several universal speech 
>>>>>> API's
>>>>>> that talk to all of the major screen readers.
>>>>>> So it stands to reason that one could, given the skills, write 
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> that queries reaper for specific information, and actions to modify
>>>>>> aspects of the current project/reapers settings in some cases.
>>>>>> Build a few dialog boxes, and there you go.
>>>>>> I say this as if its as easy as making an API sandwitch, but I know
>>>>>> better.
>>>>>> Obvious something like SWS shows the power of the reaper API, but 
>>>>>> it has
>>>>>> a development team, and lots of community support which keeps it 
>>>>>> alive.
>>>>>> If someone on this list knows enough about programming to 
>>>>>> articulate what
>>>>>> we need, chances are that someone exists who would be willing to 
>>>>>> give it
>>>>>> a try.
>>>>>> In this message, said person may be asked to specify all actions 
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> reaaccess provides, but  perhaps decompiling the reaaccess dll 
>>>>>> file would
>>>>>> help.
>>>>>> I know that a decompiler will render code that can be compiled 
>>>>>> again,
>>>>>> and not that which was initially written, but who knows... I don't.
>>>>>>> On 5/14/2014 1:36 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>> Am very aware of the good work you and Patrick do for those guys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that goes right in line with my comments, it's mostly audio
>>>>>>> editing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reaper has that covered very well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But not so well atleast with my take, on midi, and automation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Too many holes in the puzzle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's the difference between a 50 dollar daw, and a 
>>>>>>> hundreds of
>>>>>>> dollars one with lots of content, and
>>>>>>> synths and mastering fx, and so on and so forth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like comparing a motorcycle to a full blown silver eagle bus, 
>>>>>>> both will
>>>>>>> get you there, and maybe the motorcycle can go places the bus 
>>>>>>> can't but
>>>>>>> the bus can carry everything including the library, the picnic 
>>>>>>> basket,
>>>>>>> and all the power tools included 'grin'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still I wish sonar edited audio like reaper did.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why can't we have it all in one place?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2014 10:25 PM, Derek Lane wrote:
>>>>>>>> If you want to see work with reaper, see most of the content 
>>>>>>>> provided
>>>>>>>> by the serotalk podcast network.
>>>>>>>> Patrick Perdue and I use reaper as one of the primary tools for 
>>>>>>>> editing
>>>>>>>> and production, as each person on the various podcasts are on 
>>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>>> tracks. This lets us sort individual audio anomalies in the 
>>>>>>>> mix, rather
>>>>>>>> than try to rescue a bad mixdown.
>>>>>>>> I know a few people who have done some music in reaper as well, 
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> sadly most of them haven't made there work widely available.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Belle"
>>>>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 9:51 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper vs. ProTools?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dancing dots still sells
>>>>>>>>> sonar 8.5 if you want to go the official route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We face this sort of situation on all fronts, using older 
>>>>>>>>> versions
>>>>>>>>> sometimes for accessibility, and the tools for sonar have been 
>>>>>>>>> updated
>>>>>>>>> way more recently than our poor little abandonware reaccess has.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It depends on what you want to do though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lots of protools users are using older versions too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, each solution has it's pros and cons, just saying the 
>>>>>>>>> path
>>>>>>>>> most well traveled and maybe the easiest with the most real 
>>>>>>>>> help and
>>>>>>>>> documentation and all the stuff a beginner needs is definitely 
>>>>>>>>> sonar,
>>>>>>>>> never mind wha the fan boys say.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I haven't used protools yet, but I keep my ear to the ground, 
>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>> just haven't seen the work come out of that corner yet, same with
>>>>>>>>> reaper, other than a few exceptions, most are doing audio 
>>>>>>>>> editing,
>>>>>>>>> anyway, i hope reaper really takes off one day, and someone 
>>>>>>>>> picks up
>>>>>>>>> where the Russian dude let of, but you know how it goes, it's 
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> time and money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Will get with you privately and explain more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2014 6:42 PM, John Chilelli wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  From what I have heard and read, I would have to agree with you
>>>>>>>>>> concerning Sonar.  But the problem with Sonar is what you 
>>>>>>>>>> have sited
>>>>>>>>>> here.  That is, that the bestg accessible version of Sonar is 
>>>>>>>>>> v8.5
>>>>>>>>>> and where does one get hold of that version? As for my personal
>>>>>>>>>> needs, Reaper would do just fine, but for a newbie like me, 
>>>>>>>>>> it's like
>>>>>>>>>> stairing up at Mt. Everest with only summer jogging gear to work
>>>>>>>>>> with.  I got a hold of Sonar v5 recently for the asking just 
>>>>>>>>>> to look
>>>>>>>>>> at it, but didn't know where to begin with it using 
>>>>>>>>>> Window-Eyes 8.4.
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2014 4:30 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Reaper has a lot of potential but sort of enjoys a similar 
>>>>>>>>>>> status in
>>>>>>>>>>> the recording world that linux does to windows and mac, the low
>>>>>>>>>>> priced don't need much to play, can do a lot of everyone has 
>>>>>>>>>>> to roll
>>>>>>>>>>> their own kind of thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Pt has gotten better, but most blind folks who are doing the 
>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>> work I think are still using sonar even though most of us 
>>>>>>>>>>> are using
>>>>>>>>>>> an older version because there's been the most development with
>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>> you have caketalking plus jsonar, plus nvda and window-eyes 
>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>> have rudimentary access.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And it's a full blown daw, pt and sonar both come with lots 
>>>>>>>>>>> of soft
>>>>>>>>>>> synths and loop libraries, and mastering tools, reaper has the
>>>>>>>>>>> basics but you have to buy everything third party and then make
>>>>>>>>>>> access for it, most of the devs who are doing stuff for us 
>>>>>>>>>>> are doing
>>>>>>>>>>> it for sonar for the obvious reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I do a lot with midi, and
>>>>>>>>>>> our buddy Roy says he's groovy with midi and reaper, but 
>>>>>>>>>>> most of us
>>>>>>>>>>> using reaper are doing audio editing and item based 
>>>>>>>>>>> automation by
>>>>>>>>>>> splitting clips and such,
>>>>>>>>>>> I find sonar's midi implementation second to none, bu then it
>>>>>>>>>>> started off as a midi sequencer anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>> Midi has just been iimproved in pt, don't know how much, i 
>>>>>>>>>>> don't own
>>>>>>>>>>> a mac as of yet,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I have been doing professional work for years with sonar 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> that is the easiest path if you are beginning.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wish I could melt reaper and sonar together because I 
>>>>>>>>>>> really like
>>>>>>>>>>> the way reaper cross fades audio, some audio operations with 
>>>>>>>>>>> sonar
>>>>>>>>>>> are very tedious, but doing things like making tempo maps 
>>>>>>>>>>> and such
>>>>>>>>>>> are really nice with sonar, and the time and pitch stretching
>>>>>>>>>>> algorithms in sonar, radius is vastly superior to reaper or
>>>>>>>>>>> protools
>>>>>>>>>>> elastique.
>>>>>>>>>>> But it takes more time to process.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> so it's all down to how you like to work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are a couple of people here who have really customized 
>>>>>>>>>>> reaper
>>>>>>>>>>> with the extra extensions who are getting the most out of 
>>>>>>>>>>> it, but
>>>>>>>>>>> again, it's like the linux thing, it depends on how much 
>>>>>>>>>>> time you
>>>>>>>>>>> have, and how deeply you want to dive, reaccess is dead,
>>>>>>>>>>> it abandon ware, and any new reaper developoment will have 
>>>>>>>>>>> to come
>>>>>>>>>>> from elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes a person has to make their own way, for instance, 
>>>>>>>>>>> a buddy
>>>>>>>>>>> of mine paid a programmer to make cubass work for him.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I paid the dev of nvda to make sonar work a bit better for me
>>>>>>>>>>> because I don't like using jaws all the time, and so on and so
>>>>>>>>>>> forth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Protools may not enjoy quite the monopoly it once did in the 
>>>>>>>>>>> world,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I hardly think reaper is going to replace it any time 
>>>>>>>>>>> soon, it's
>>>>>>>>>>> still the defacto standard in many places.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reaper is like the poor kid on the block but with a huge 
>>>>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>>>>> that hasn't been realized yet, atleast in our corner, but it 
>>>>>>>>>>> has a
>>>>>>>>>>> great programming api and someone with the skill and time 
>>>>>>>>>>> could make
>>>>>>>>>>> it sing and dance for us.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but there again is the rub, jaws scripting language sucks 
>>>>>>>>>>> compared
>>>>>>>>>>> to a real programming language, but because it's been so well
>>>>>>>>>>> develooped
>>>>>>>>>>> we enjoy much more functionallity with jaws that with the 
>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>> technologies which haven't been developed yet from say nvda 
>>>>>>>>>>> ppython
>>>>>>>>>>> or window-eyes whicfh can use any programming language.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> so there you have it, pick your poison, or pick several of 
>>>>>>>>>>> them and
>>>>>>>>>>> milk them for all they're worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2014 1:26 PM, Jes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, guys, I'm probably going to start a big controversy 
>>>>>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>>>>> about now, and you'll forgive me, but I have to know this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the fact that Reaper on the Mac is not accessible, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> proTools is, What are the advantages of Reaper over 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ProTools? I am
>>>>>>>>>>>> really getting interested in going into the music business for
>>>>>>>>>>>> real, not just as a hobby, and I'm just wondering the pros 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and cons
>>>>>>>>>>>> of each environment. Is Reaper going to kill ProTools one 
>>>>>>>>>>>> day and
>>>>>>>>>>>> become the industry leader?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I have a question about the reaaccess.com website. If 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan
>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't around anymore, how is the sight still running? and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> how much
>>>>>>>>>>>> longer might it be around? Is this list run off of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> freelists or
>>>>>>>>>>>> something like that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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