[RWP] I need all of your input, please. Abandoning Reaper vs. ProTools, should I stay or go?

[Jes]

How can I find this backup solution?

Original message:
> Ins the sake of completeness, Modern versions of windows such as win 7 
> and win 8, does have a time machine style back up option. But yeah Time 
> machine is easier and works with VO to restore. Restore points isn’t a 
> “back up” solution really.
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:47 AM, Jes <jessmith at samobile.net> wrote:

>> One more thing, Chris.
>> Another thing the Mac has going forward, is Time Machine. Time Machine 
>> is Apple's own automatic backup utility. It keeps backups of your 
>> internal hard drive, and when your disk gets full, it erases the oldest 
>> Time Machine backup. Unlike windows restore, Time Machine makes images 
>> of your back up. It keeps all of your files, folders, and data intact 
>> so even if you accidentally delete something, all you have to do is 
>> restore your Time Machine backup that had that particular thing on it, 
>> and you're good to go.
>> It comes with every Mac.
>> A great tool!

>> Jes

>> Sent from my iPhone

>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 11:50 PM, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>>> yes indeed, balancing learning new stuff with getting work done.

>>> And it's always that extra step for us with accessibility and useability.

>>> I wanted to mention disk cloning in windows briefly for the guy who was 
>>> wondering abou that.

>>> The best choice for us is image from terabyte.

>>> They have a windows, dos and linux version, I've used the dos version 
>>> for years with hardware speech for interactive restores, and most 
>>> recently used bryan smarts talking windows pe disk to boot windows and 
>>> restore interactively with the windows version of image.

>>> The linux version is good too, and there are tutorials over at vinuxproject.org
>>> which show how, but that image is very accessible and the guys over 
>>> there keep accessibility in mind for us.

>>> One can also use a windows only thing like casper to do disk cloning 
>>> which works ok, I don't like windows only solutions,
>>> prefering to restore with an os outside of windows, but hey, what ever 
>>> works is right.

>>> The one thing using a mac has going for it is since you have the same 
>>> hardware everywhere you can just plug your hard-drive in and go to work right?

>>> Does it have to be the exact same model of machine


>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:10 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>> Hey Chris,

>>>> Yup, learned a few of the ropes on hardware, then most of the ones I
>>>> swing from every day on Pro Tools, and am still attempting the rest of
>>>> them lol.

>>>> Suppose I should've been clearer... I meant that native out of the box
>>>> accessibility or support for whichever bolt-on package applies from
>>>> the DAW manufactures themselves has stalled at some point for every
>>>> DAW that I can think of. On the Sonar front, I was thinking of X1, but
>>>> I'm not familiar with developments since, no doubt you'd know more
>>>> about that. To be fair, Reaper isn't exempt from that statement
>>>> either, and we're talking long before ReaAccess existed. My buddy
>>>> Jinseng was a Reaper user since before version 1.0 dropped, and was
>>>> happily getting stuff done without the need for bolt-on accessibility
>>>> to start with. There you have it, accidental accessibility is a
>>>> fragile thing.

>>>> This is why I generally only upgrade stuff when there's some useful
>>>> advantage to be had, and why I try not to burn time tinkering outside
>>>> of the two DAWs that I know nowadays. Honestly, I'd love to bring two
>>>> DAWs down to one, not fussed over which, but neither is quite there
>>>> yet.

>>>> Scott

>>>>> On 7/13/14, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> hey Scott,
>>>>> I didn't know you were an avid protools user, no wonder sonar's audio
>>>>> editing drove you nuts.

>>>>> I agree with everything you said, except that to my memory,
>>>>> the least amount of regressions and dead stops have been shown by sonar
>>>>> development.

>>>>> Most every version of sonar has been accessible and cakewalk has or
>>>>> other third party programs have put the basics in to operation in
>>>>> patches with every version.

>>>>> Going back to version 2,
>>>>> I think every version had a caketalking version, and jsonar kept up
>>>>> pretty well over the past few years.

>>>>> I ran blind like you did many times without scripts, when the scripts
>>>>> slowed me down.

>>>>> Yeh, vo is kind of like orca on linux, just get's to be a real pig, and
>>>>> almost quits.

>>>>> I've heard that from so many, and I noticed that even on Stephie's ipad.

>>>>> that being said, windows readers can do that too, but I do things like
>>>>> run dedicated hardware synths which greatly speeds up things, and keeps
>>>>> my audio system clean of tts stuff just waiting to mess with my clock
>>>>> and stuff.

>>>>> And it's not windows which is the culprit so much with
>>>>> working with a daw as much as it is the hardware you pick.

>>>>> Getting the right motherboard, and doing the processor throttling just
>>>>> right, turning off hpet, and virtualization and this and that, and you
>>>>> can get your dpc latencies down to the single digits on certain
>>>>> motherboards, and run your asio device down to the 32 asio buffers,
>>>>> which is smokin fast.

>>>>> I think dedicated high end asio devices in one forum I read beat out
>>>>> what the mac did, but the mac has the advantage of getting low enough
>>>>> latency but making it easy to aggregate devices,
>>>>> I like to run atleast at 128 or lower, it depends on the hidden safety
>>>>> buffers in your interface, but 256 feels sliggish on my onyx board, but
>>>>> not bad on the delta cards.

>>>>> they actually expose the true latency to the daw, atleast in sonar.

>>>>> Don't confuse asio latency with the dpc latency i was talking about
>>>>> earlier, that's another thing entirely, that has to do with how fast
>>>>> drivers get priority in the kernel,
>>>>> and can surely hang up your ass when you got lots of real time plugs
>>>>> goin on.

>>>>> But, generally,\
>>>>> the mac handles memory and resources better than windows does, there's
>>>>> something equivalent to dpc in the mac world under the hood I'm sure,
>>>>> they just don't call it that, but all these operating systems are the
>>>>> same in essence, a kernel with a gui on top.

>>>>> And now that windows and mac use the same processors, apple has
>>>>> inherited some of the hassles along with the benefits.

>>>>> We have extremely powerful systems on both sides now, though you'll pay
>>>>> a pretty penny to get it on mac side, some things were better in the mac
>>>>> world though when we were running motorolla processors.

>>>>> I read some white papers on that,
>>>>> a while back,
>>>>> it doesn't mater much in 2014, but just sayin.



>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 8:01 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>> Late to the party as usual, but here's a few thoughts below each of
>>>>>> the 6. I'll be briefer than some, but this is coming from the
>>>>>> experience of using both DAWs daily, so hope these are still useful to
>>>>>> you Jes.

>>>>>> 1. ProTools is accessible right out of the box, Reaper is not.
>>>>>> If the most recent version of Pro Tools was 100% accessible (or at the
>>>>>> very least a step forward in every plausible way) and avid had a
>>>>>> strong track record of maintaining that accessibility, then that'd be
>>>>>> a killer reason. As things stand, it's not, and they don't, so...

>>>>>> 2. ProTools is the industry standard, Reaper has a long way to catch
>>>>>> up, if it ever does.
>>>>>> If you're constantly working out of different places, then consider
>>>>>> what's industry standard. Otherwise, consider what'll let you get
>>>>>> stuff done efficiently, because you're going to need efficiency on
>>>>>> your side at all times if you want to keep pace with a sighted guy
>>>>>> who's been bothered to learn his DAW beyond pointing and clicking.

>>>>>> 3.  Reaaccess, like it or not, will one day be rendered useless.
>>>>>> As was Pro Tools for 3 major versions and several years. When that
>>>>>> happened, it was the only DAW I knew how to use and I was making the
>>>>>> majority of my living using it, so hopefully there won't ever be a
>>>>>> repeat of that situation, but to be fair, it's happened at some point
>>>>>> in the history of every DAW I can think of. The slight advantage
>>>>>> Reaper has here is its open-ness to third party developers, and
>>>>>> although ReaAccess is abandonware, there are already rumblings of a
>>>>>> couple of potential successors, and those are just the ones that've
>>>>>> reached my ears, there might be more.

>>>>>> 4. I have no easy, accessible way to backup my internal hard drive on
>>>>>> my Windows machine.
>>>>>> I seem to remember there being a few Cavicasts on cloning and
>>>>>> restoring images, so maybe start with those. It's perhaps not quite
>>>>>> the same experience as maintenance on the Mac side, but I know it can
>>>>>> be done without sighted assistance.

>>>>>> 5. I already have a Mac and am familiar with VoiceOver.
>>>>>> Here's the biggest reason that you should give it a go IMHO. For the
>>>>>> price of an iLok (£25-ish in the UK, or whatever that equates to in
>>>>>> dollars) you can authorise the demo of Pro Tools for a month and try
>>>>>> it on for size. I know, it sucks that you have to authorise the demo,
>>>>>> and you'll need to get someone sighted to help you through the iLok
>>>>>> authorisation too, but from knowing how different the schools of
>>>>>> thought are between using Reaper and using Pro Tools, you should
>>>>>> definitely try before you buy.

>>>>>> 6. Windows is not made for audio work.
>>>>>> Agreed, but with solid hardware that'd serve you well to own no matter
>>>>>> which DAW you end up using, some patience and a good restoration
>>>>>> solution to get back to that time when it did run well, Windows can be
>>>>>> bullied into doing well enough with audio. On the flipside, VoiceOver
>>>>>> is an absolute dog nowadays, and with a lot of research and all the
>>>>>> patience in the world, there's nothing I've been able to do about
>>>>>> that. On an I7 Mac, 16 GB of RAM and a fast Samsung SSD, VO still
>>>>>> slows me down in Pro Tools to the point that a lot of the time I end
>>>>>> up flying blind as it were.

>>>>>> As with anything, it's swings and roundabouts whichever way you turn.
>>>>>> It'll probably always be this way. They say too much choice is a bad
>>>>>> thing, but we're dealing with too many half-baked choices which is
>>>>>> even worse. My advice would be to try out as much stuff as you can
>>>>>> justify with the time you have, find what works for you then learn it
>>>>>> inside out and ignore everything else until you come across something
>>>>>> that simply isn't possible.

>>>>>> Scott

>>>>>>> On 7/13/14, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Good points.

>>>>>>> but it's very safe to say, how much hotdog hardware you can get even
>>>>>>> going with a premium daw vendor will be much greater than you can expect
>>>>>>> from apple.
>>>>>>> for the same price.

>>>>>>> Jim Roseberry's daws for a nice i5 tricked out with 16 megs and
>>>>>>> 2 drives start at just a thousand.

>>>>>>> You won't get anything like that kind of performance from anything in
>>>>>>> mac land at that price,

>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 5:03 PM, Crystal Dennis wrote:
>>>>>>>> I've never used protools but have done a lot of research on it - I
>>>>>>>> also, have never been able to wrap my head around reaper other than
>>>>>>>> just using it for recording - everytime I try to use a plug it is very
>>>>>>>> um...not as streamlined?  I'd say.  Reaper has  a big learning curve
>>>>>>>> for me and I want to try to learn it now but when I look at Protools
>>>>>>>> manuals and guides it just seems like a lot simpler of an interface.

>>>>>>>> But since you know what you're doing in regards to using both
>>>>>>>> interfaces I take it I'll just throw in my 2 cents:

>>>>>>>> Will there be challenges in protools on a Mac?  Yeah, probably.  Will
>>>>>>>> there be challenges on windows with Reaper?  Yeah, most definitely.
>>>>>>>> Windows isn't a system built for audio engineering, and though as
>>>>>>>> Chris said you can build a custom Windows rig, it would probably cost
>>>>>>>> more or about the same as the Mac and Protools that will be ready to
>>>>>>>> use out the box.  Yes, Protools could break, but imo Reaper has more
>>>>>>>> of a possibility of breaking because ray access works on an older
>>>>>>>> version of Reaper.

>>>>>>>> Protools is the industry standard:  If you want to be level on the
>>>>>>>> same playing field as our sighted peers, then idk I'd go with
>>>>>>>> protools.

>>>>>>>> To be honest, I've sort of not wanted to learn Reaper because I
>>>>>>>> eventually want to get a Mac with protools.

>>>>>>>> I've gone on the Mac for Protools lists and seen 2 things:  The
>>>>>>>> interface is easy to pick up (the protools manual has about 80 pages
>>>>>>>> worth of keystrokes in it) and the accessibility stays well,
>>>>>>>> accessible throughout updates, and if they break something in an
>>>>>>>> update Avid fixes it pretty quickly in the next update.

>>>>>>>> If you want something to use out of the box and already know Voice
>>>>>>>> over:  Yeah, personally I'd go with Mac/Protools.  Will you have to
>>>>>>>> use multiple programs to work around some things?  Probably,  but
>>>>>>>> let's face it:  Being blind with technology, that's just par for the
>>>>>>>> course no matter what you use.  Honestly I'd probably have both a PC
>>>>>>>> and a Mac (not Mac with bootcamp, but a legit PC) just so you have
>>>>>>>> both options  available to you so you don't feel like you made a
>>>>>>>> mistake in switching.

>>>>>>>> Hope this helped!  Like I said I don't super use either DAW, but this
>>>>>>>> is just from research I've done/opinions I've formed from trying to
>>>>>>>> use Reaper and reading up on protools with voice over.

>>>>>>>> Crystal

>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Kevin Brown <cursebuster at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Lots of great points!,...I am one of those guys who likes to spend the
>>>>>>>>> time tweeking, and bolting things together...
>>>>>>>>> So,...Reaper works fine for me,...then again, I am not as advanced as
>>>>>>>>> many of you on this forum...

>>>>>>>>> Another point for me is, I am totally hooked on system access, and I
>>>>>>>>> find that reaper works very well with system access...

>>>>>>>>> I like some of the points you made Cris,...I may look into getting a
>>>>>>>>> windows machine custom built,...but, I am still going to use
>>>>>>>>> reaper,...I just love this DAW...


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