[RWP] Reaper Accessibility Query from New User
Indigo
33indigo at charter.net
Wed Sep 11 17:59:20 EDT 2013
Hi David,
I just inserted a midi file into Reaper 4.4.5; running NVDA; and the
method still seems to work nicely.
First select the midi item.
I used ctrl+shift+right arrow, but shift+A works, just fine to select
the midi item.
Then open the midi editor with ctrl+alt+E Echo.
This opens the editor, no need to press enter.
Then press alt+V victor, which opens a special view sub menu that's only
available when you have the midi editor open.
Then arrow up a couple of spaces to Mode Event List; and press enter.
This step is the one that only needs to be done once per session, to get
the events shown as a list.
With NVDA in Windows 7 64, the moves are almost exactly as they are in
Window-Eyes in XP.
As soon as I select the midi item, and opened the editor with
ctrl+alt+e, then do the alt+V and arrowed up to Mode Events List and
pressed enter; the notes of the midi item are immediately displayed
vertically at the up and down arrow keys.
Each note's position and pitch, and I think the note's midi program
number; are spoken as I arrow to them.
To get the events listed at the tab key with NVDA, I arrowed to a note,
thenpressed the NVDA key plus numberPad dash to move to focus, then
pressed NVDA+tab key to move the events list over to the tab key.
After that extra move required in NVDA; the events are nicely listed at
the tab key, just as if I'm in Wineyes or Jaws, and the edit fields for
each event are at the arrow keys
I noticed the ctrl+F2 shortcut to get event properties dialog, which I
didn't take time to explore, but seems to give a long list of properties
per event.
To get the quantize dialog, I pressed escape to get those events off the
tab key, then pressed Q and the quantize dialog appears at the tab and
arrow keys.
Near the top of the quantize list at the tab key is a 2 position choice
of using grid or manual quantization.
If you right arrow to manual; then tab down; you get to a selection
named grid.
At your arrow keys, you are at the bottom of the grid list.
Arrow up to find the usual grid; called note lengths in some daws; like
thirty-second, sixteenths, eighths.
Then after selecting grid length; tab back up to use grid or quantize
manually.
Arrow left to use grid.
Now, you have just set the grid or note length, so you can proceed to
tab down to all kinds of interesting quantization options, like whether
to quantize the whole note, the note's beginning or its end, etcetera.
You have percentage of quantization, which is called degree of freedom
in some daws.
100 percent is very robotic, and something less; like 50 percent will
sound more natural and less robotic.
Just continue to tab down and make your selections at the arrow keys.
Commit is near the bottom of the list, and OK was shown just below
Commit; with NVDA.
Previously, I've always pressed enter on Commit, in the Quantization dialog.
When editing events; I'll try your method of just pressing enter after
making a selection.
I always seem to do more than I need to, and welcome anything that
speeds work flow.
Thanks,
Indi
On 9/11/2013 3:45 PM, David P Shortland wrote:
> Hi & Greetings again from Down Under
>
> Again, just a little addendum to Indy's post...
>
> Once you have selected the MIDI Item you wish to Edit
> Control plus Alt plus E opens the MIDI Editor...
>
> You only need to do this once but you need to go to the Options Menu (I
> think) or it might be the View Menu...(apologies not sure which)
>
> Select Event List...
>
> You can scroll up and down the Event List with the cursor keys
>
> When you want to Edit an Event Focus on it and press Control plus F2
>
> This Opens the Event Item Dialog and yu can TAB around and change
> whatever you wish...
>
> No need to go to the Apply or OK buttons just hit Enter when you have
> finished your Edit...
>
> Kind regards
>
> David P Shortland
> DragonScore Productions
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Indigo
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:52 PM
> To: Reapers Without Peepers
> Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper Accessibility Query from New User
>
> I used those ancient midi sequencers in dos or on the Atari ST; , like
> Voyettra Gold, Doctor T's Keyboard Midi Sequencer, all totally
> accessible, just punching in numbers, then I did midi from hardware
> sequencers, from Yamaha and the MMT8; then I edited midi from Sonar
> versions 4, 6, 7 and 8.5.3, and to me all editing at the event level is
> the most tedious, most boring thing I could imagine.
>
> I'd rather play in a passage a dozen times until I get it just right
> than chase down a single midi event and type in number values.
> But, for those who don't mind, I think Reaper's layout for getting at
> notes and every single note event possible at tab and arrow keys
> couldn't be more ideal.
> How could it be easier than having everything neately labeled and laid
> out at the taband arrow keys; where you can arrow to other note values,
> for instance, or type in different numbers for velocity, note length,
> pitch, program number, yada yada yada?
> One thing to note is that; when finished with editing; you need to tab
> to apply, and then hit enter; but there can be another step that might
> or might not be required.
> At certain places, you might need to find an OK button that needs to be
> clicked; after pressing enter on Apply takes you back to the track view;
> so look out for that one.
> If anyone is not hearing their changes of values being applied to their
> music, go to your number pad and use your PC cursor slash mouse pointer
> slash object navigation to find that OK button, then left click it.
> I'll go search my collection and repost David Shortland's method of
> reaching the midi editor.
> By the way, since it's a different midi editor than the inline editor
> that Ivan's shortcut reached, maybe reaAccess is not doing anything to
> assist with access of David's midi editor, it's just screenreader
> friendly because Reaper is written that way, using Microsoft standard
> menus and controls.
> Indi
>
>
>
>
> On 9/11/2013 4:51 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>> I'm really not a MIDI type, but sure, a repost of David's steps is
>> bound to help someone.
>>
>> Yeah, of course MIDI is MIDI is MIDI from DAW to DAW, but I'd wager
>> there would be neat little tips and tricks people use to speed up
>> editing which are specific to each one. Sometimes, just watching
>> someone else who's got a workflow down smashing through a task can be
>> quite inspiring.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On 9/11/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>>> I'll dig out and post the guide to bringing up the midi editor, David
>>> Shortland style, which is step-by-step to get inside the midi editor,
>>> right down to the event list for each note of your music along the
>>> timeline.
>>> Anyone who has the least experience with editing midi events in every
>>> sequencer or daw ever made should know that midi is midi; and it isn't
>>> different in a different daw.
>>> Each event is clearly labeled in Reaper, in plain English, and if you
>>> want to shorten or lengthen a note length, or move the note up or down a
>>> list of chromatic notes, or shift it to another octave, or alter its
>>> velocity number, or move the note's position on the timeline, or a
>>> thousand other editing details; duh, what's so hard about that to figure
>>> out?
>>> So, it's laid out differently from Voyettra Gold, or Sonar, or ProTools,
>>> don't we all expect that?
>>> It's good for the health of our brain cells to exercise them, otherwise
>>> we get to be an old dog that can't learn new tricks.
>>> When all note events are clearly labeled, all laid out very conveniently
>>> at the tab keys, with edit fields at the arrow keys, what more could
>>> anyone ever hope for in access from a screenreader?
>>> Indi
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/10/2013 8:15 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>> I've dropped Roy a line to see whether he'd have time to share some
>>>> wisdom. Just hit on the idea of spending a bit of time hanging out
>>>> with each of the people on here that are using Reaper to do cool
>>>> stuff, whatever their stuff may be. I'd interview them and record a
>>>> bit of them in action for an hour at most, then handle all the boring
>>>> editing uploading headache stuff so they don't have too. Seems like if
>>>> enough people are keen to be featured it'd make a neat little podcast
>>>> series. I could justify putting the time into it seeing as I'd no
>>>> doubt learn a bunch of stuff along the way.
>>>>
>>>> Let's see what happens. First time I've been excited about Reaper in a
>>>> while, so I hope the response from Roy is positive so I can strike
>>>> while the iron is hot here.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> On 9/11/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> Roy seems to have a leg up on some of the things we don't, bet he'd
>>>>> help
>>>>> out
>>>>> if we approached him with a few clams.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Goldfinga Productions
>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 5:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper Accessibility Query from New User
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ah, well that is a hole new animal… I can do some of it, but I
>>>>> would
>>>>> like
>>>>> to better edit stuff. Is there a person doing this already? Are they
>>>>> giving
>>>>> lessons? lol
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 10, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > I mean doing detailed editing and such.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Are you down with that, I can load up and play midi and
>>>>> such, but
>>>>> detailed editing and nudging notes and doing transforms or search and
>>>>> replace like the interpolate dialogue in sonar, that sort of stuff.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: Goldfinga Productions
>>>>> > To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:44 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper Accessibility Query from New User
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I use midi all the time with reaper…
>>>>> > That's why I have been all over poise, that's one less piece of
>>>>> hardware
>>>>> that I have to hook up to the mixer. Now I can leave my npc at the
>>>>> church.
>>>>> lol.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sep 10, 2013, at 4:41 PM, "Chris Belle"
>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > yeh, reaper
>>>>> > > isn't where sonar is but definitely useable,
>>>>> > > especially with straight audio.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > We're all gonna have to flip Roy a few sheckles and get him to
>>>>> show us
>>>>> how he does midi with reaper,
>>>>> > > I just ain't figured it out yet.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > I mean I can do basics load a osft synth and hit the midi
>>>>> editor,
>>>>> > > and see some events and such, but it ain't anything like sonar
>>>>> and
>>>>> there are no docs,
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > We desperately need some serious docs shoing how to do
>>>>> everything.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > > From: Goldfinga Productions
>>>>> > > To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:34 PM
>>>>> > > Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper Accessibility Query from New User
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > That's exactly where I was going with that. lol. I use reaper,
>>>>> hell,
>>>>> like I said in my last message, I paid for it.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 4:25 PM, "Chris Belle"
>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > > I think GF was being humorous.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > I took it that way anyhow.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Kind of how we get the shaft and the end of the line
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>> in
>>>>> the world and have to fight like dogs to not get left out,
>>>>> > > > but you know how it works in this world, money talks and
>>>>> bullshit
>>>>> walks.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > If there were 20 million blind reaper users ready to buy
>>>>> access
>>>>> would be here next week 'grin'.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > For now we just have to cowboy up and do the best we can.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > > > From: Scott Chesworth
>>>>> > > > To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 1:10 PM
>>>>> > > > Subject: Re: [RWP] Reaper Accessibility Query from New User
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Couple of points to keep in mind before you dig too deep
>>>>> into
>>>>> slating
>>>>> > > > the Reaper developers in public...
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > They are aware that a visually impaired userbase exists, and
>>>>> have
>>>>> > > > gradually been exposing GUI elements over time. If you need
>>>>> proof
>>>>> of
>>>>> > > > that, do some mousing around in Reaper on PC and see how
>>>>> much
>>>>> NVDA
>>>>> > > > tells you, or compare how much is visible with VoiceOver
>>>>> on Mac
>>>>> now
>>>>> > > > against a version from a couple years back. API bugs that
>>>>> impacted
>>>>> > > > upon ReaAccess were fixed, and there have been a couple of
>>>>> instances
>>>>> > > > where accessibility gets a mention in the changelogs. A
>>>>> couple
>>>>> of
>>>>> > > > people with decent track records of getting stuff done
>>>>> are in
>>>>> contact
>>>>> > > > with Justin the lead developer, all be it sporadically.
>>>>> They're
>>>>> not
>>>>> > > > shouting from the rooftops about that, but when the progress
>>>>> comes,
>>>>> it
>>>>> > > > happens in fits and starts and has been largely due to
>>>>> nudges
>>>>> and
>>>>> > > > guidance from these key people. I think it's fair to say
>>>>> that
>>>>> Cockos
>>>>> > > > have demonstrated that they're happy to help, but they need
>>>>> guidance
>>>>> > > > and it needs to fit around their existing roadmap. I
>>>>> think it's
>>>>> pretty
>>>>> > > > unfair to say we've been shafted. If you must find a home
>>>>> for
>>>>> that
>>>>> > > > accusation, Ivan's your man. Tell him who sent you lol.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Is the future certain? No. Then again, are their other DAW
>>>>> developers
>>>>> > > > showing markedly less interest? You betcha.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Nice idea re the NVDA team. Last time I approached Jamie
>>>>> about
>>>>> Reaper
>>>>> > > > he was up to his ears in Sonar as his pet project, but who
>>>>> knows,
>>>>> > > > someone else might have better luck catching him at the
>>>>> right
>>>>> time.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Scott
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > On 9/10/13, Goldfinga Productions <goldfingas at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > > > Glad I could brighten your day with that one. lol.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 9:18 AM, Keith Hinton
>>>>> <keithint1234 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > >> Muhahahahahahahhahaha! Cock OS! Oh dear! LOL Okay,
>>>>> I'll stop
>>>>> laughing
>>>>> > > > >> now.
>>>>> > > > >> But yeah, I think we've got it for sure.
>>>>> > > > >>
>>>>> > > > >> On 9/10/13, Goldfinga Productions <goldfingas at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > > >>> Remember folks, the developers of reaper call them
>>>>> selves
>>>>> "cockos." If
>>>>> > > > >>> you
>>>>> > > > >>> break that down, it spells "cock OS." lol. I think we
>>>>> got
>>>>> the
>>>>> shaft on
>>>>> > > > >>> this
>>>>> > > > >>> one.
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>> On Sep 10, 2013, at 8:37 AM, Keith Hinton
>>>>> <keithint1234 at gmail.com>
>>>>> > > > >>> wrote:
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>>> I can tel you, despite being new myself, that yes,
>>>>> ReaAccess
>>>>> has
>>>>> > > > >>>> always been (basicly) the accessibility pathway for
>>>>> screen
>>>>> readers to
>>>>> > > > >>>> interface to Reaper.
>>>>> > > > >>>> The development has die out-last update was in 2010.
>>>>> > > > >>>> A few folks have been able to use Reaper 4 with
>>>>> ReaAccess
>>>>> just
>>>>> > > > >>>> fine-looking up workarounds for things etc, but as I
>>>>> understand
>>>>> it
>>>>> > > > >>>> your largely on your own with Reaper anyways.
>>>>> > > > >>>> Without ReaAccess, I do not believe any native
>>>>> accessibility
>>>>> exists in
>>>>> > > > >>>> Reaper itself.
>>>>> > > > >>>> However, again, I could be utterly wrong.
>>>>> > > > >>>> If others could reply to this new users question as
>>>>> well,
>>>>> that
>>>>> might
>>>>> > > > >>>> help-but I believe I've answered it.
>>>>> > > > >>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>> On 9/10/13, Daveed Mandell <daveedm at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > > >>>>> Hello:
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>> What is the status of Reaper accessibility right
>>>>> now? I
>>>>> understand
>>>>> > > > >>>>> that
>>>>> > > > >>>>> Reaper's developers have shown little or no
>>>>> interest in
>>>>> making
>>>>> the
>>>>> > > > >>>>> software
>>>>> > > > >>>>> accessible, and that accessibility has been provided
>>>>> through
>>>>> a
>>>>> > > > >>>>> separate
>>>>> > > > >>>>> bridfe produced by blind people working from this list
>>>>> and
>>>>> website. I
>>>>> > > > >>>>> also
>>>>> > > > >>>>> understand that the website itself isn't functioning
>>>>> anymore
>>>>> due to
>>>>> > > > >>>>> problems
>>>>> > > > >>>>> related to spam. At any rate, is the latest version of
>>>>> Reaper,
>>>>> version
>>>>> > > > >>>>> 4.5,
>>>>> > > > >>>>> accessible for blind folks? It is interesting to
>>>>> note the
>>>>> difference
>>>>> > > > >>>>> in
>>>>> > > > >>>>> attitude between the developers of Reaper, versus the
>>>>> developers of
>>>>> > > > >>>>> the
>>>>> > > > >>>>> free
>>>>> > > > >>>>> Audacity audio software, who have been very
>>>>> conscientiously
>>>>> > > > >>>>> integrating
>>>>> > > > >>>>> accessibility into the software. Thanks for any
>>>>> updates
>>>>> and
>>>>> > > > >>>>> information
>>>>> > > > >>>>> regarding Reaper accessibility.
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>> Regards,
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>> Daveed Mandell
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > >>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > >>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >>>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>> --
>>>>> > > > >>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> > > > >>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>> Keith
>>>>> > > > >>>> Home Phone:
>>>>> > > > >>>> 928-554-3936
>>>>> > > > >>>> Mobile Phone:
>>>>> > > > >>>> 928-713-6370
>>>>> > > > >>>> Primary email:
>>>>> > > > >>>> keithint1234 at gmail.com
>>>>> > > > >>>>
>>>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > >>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > >>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>> GF
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>> Check me out on twitter
>>>>> > > > >>> http://www.twitter.com/goldfingas
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > >>> RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > >>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >>>
>>>>> > > > >>
>>>>> > > > >>
>>>>> > > > >> --
>>>>> > > > >> Sincerely,
>>>>> > > > >>
>>>>> > > > >> Keith
>>>>> > > > >> Home Phone:
>>>>> > > > >> 928-554-3936
>>>>> > > > >> Mobile Phone:
>>>>> > > > >> 928-713-6370
>>>>> > > > >> Primary email:
>>>>> > > > >> keithint1234 at gmail.com
>>>>> > > > >>
>>>>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > >> RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > >> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > GF
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > Check me out on twitter
>>>>> > > > > http://www.twitter.com/goldfingas
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > GF
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Check me out on twitter
>>>>> > > http://www.twitter.com/goldfingas
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > GF
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Check me out on twitter
>>>>> > http://www.twitter.com/goldfingas
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > RWP mailing list
>>>>> > RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> > http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> GF
>>>>>
>>>>> Check me out on twitter
>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/goldfingas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RWP mailing list
>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RWP mailing list
>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RWP mailing list
> RWP at reaaccess.com
> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> RWP mailing list
> RWP at reaaccess.com
> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
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