[RWP] considering purchasing the behringer BCF2000controlsurface, but have a few questions

Wed May 8 19:12:05 EDT 2013

Just a couple of thoughts that occurred as I was catching up:

The chap who develops the SWS extension is a nice guy, and would be
happy to help to some extent, but knows next to nothing about
accessibility. I think the time to play that card would be if we had
someone actively developing, perhaps we could see about getting their
work integrated as part of SWS, like having an "accessibility mode".
One big advantage of this would be wider recognition from Reaper power
users and a little more pull with the Reaper developers themselves.
Extensions don't come any better respected than SWS.

Decompilation of the ReaAccess dll is a great idea for anyone who has
the knowledge of how to, and the chops to use what they might find. It
wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that Ivan went out of his
way to prevent that from being possible, but that's just a hunch. If
it helps, I have every version archived and some early betas to
somewhere I think which may be less secure.

Lastly, one more person with enough love for Reaper to guaranty that
I'd contribute financially for a good developer to get stuck in. My
pockets aren't all that deep, but there's a decent amount of change
jingling about here for the right person. For me, the project would
need to be either fully open source or at least have archives of the
code base being distributed to key contributors, so that everyone can
be sure we won't end up with a repeat of this state of limbo.

Now then, who do we know that's up to the job...

On 5/8/13, Derek Lane <derek at pdaudio.net> wrote:
> One thing which is also broken is a little semantic issue dealing with the
> menu bar.
> Reaaccess preferences are now in the middle of the item menu, not in
> options.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex H." <linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com>
> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [RWP] considering purchasing the behringer
> BCF2000controlsurface, but have a few questions
>
>
>> Agreed Chris. JAWS isn't the answer to everyone's problems. Hardcore
>> NVDA user here.
>>
>> So, things that need work, opinion as always, but some of it's just
>> bluntly, obviously, broken or never worked for us in general.
>>
>> -Automation. Plain and simple. not MIDI/OSC. Good old mousey mousey
>> automation. Should be a way to do that with the keyboard...somehow.
>> Probably in realtime as a track's playing, and assign various
>> up/down/next/pripr param to keystrokes. Clunky, but there's not really
>> a good way to do this unless you've got a control surface which sort
>> of negates that whole thing. But we don't all have control surfaces.
>>
>> -Track Routing: As Derek said, routing is pretty broken in Reaper 4
>> when doing more than two channel stuff. Workable at best, but again,
>> clunky. If we're gonna do it, let's do it right.
>>
>> More that I'm missing of course but let's see others chime in, round
>> tables are beautiful things :)
>> thanks
>> Alex
>>
>> On 5/8/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> yes, if I came across negqtive at all was not meant that way.
>>>
>>> I'm just hard core and practical and I know it's gonna take money.
>>>
>>> I also know most of the folks here on this list aren't running working
>>> studio's but are just hobbiests, and that makes a difference.
>>>
>>> Most of the serious studio cats are using sonar or pt, one guy I know
>>> using
>>>
>>> cubass, but this could change if we could get something ling.
>>>
>>> I'll committ to spending some money, but not for a jaws only deal.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alex H." <linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 2:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] considering purchasing the behringer
>>> BCF2000controlsurface, but have a few questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> Agreed with GF. Also willing to drop some bucks on having something a
>>>> bit more flexible/actively developed than ReaAccess. Let's keep it
>>>> productive. Money talks, and so should we, to each other to actually,
>>>> do something.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>> On 5/8/13, Goldfinga Productions <goldfingas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I don't have not one problem paying a developer for their time. I run
>>>>> a
>>>>> recording studio As well, and know that that is what pays the bills.
>>>>> The
>>>>> money was not the issue, I just was wondering if anyone knew anyone
>>>>> who
>>>>> was
>>>>> interested in working on the project. I am not one of those people who
>>>>> expects something for nothing, people like that irritate me. But
>>>>> anyway,
>>>>> this is not a list for bashing the less fortunate or anything like
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> The
>>>>> question still stands, does anyone know of anyone who may be
>>>>> interested
>>>>> in
>>>>> working on a new accessibility project for reaper. Reaper is very open
>>>>> source, and I'm quite sure that if we put the right person on the job,
>>>>> We
>>>>> may be able to advance musically as a community. Right now, our
>>>>> options
>>>>> are
>>>>> very limited as far as digital audio workstation software. We have
>>>>> limited
>>>>> accessibility to several programs, and at the end of the day, we never
>>>>> can
>>>>> get the total idea down without jumping through hoops, for using
>>>>> several
>>>>> pieces of software to complete one task. I have one person who may be
>>>>> interested in looking at reaper and how we can make it accessible,
>>>>> we'll
>>>>>
>>>>> see
>>>>> where that goes. But if anyone knows any developers who are looking
>>>>> for
>>>>> something interesting to get into, let's try to get this thing going
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please ignore any spelling errors or typos in this message, I am using
>>>>> dictation. LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> GF
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey there are hungry programmers out there, you got the money, they
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what I did to get nvda to work better with sonar since I was
>>>>>> sick
>>>>>> of jaws quirks and bloat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These big companies want thousands just to even look at things, but
>>>>>> you'd
>>>>>> be supprised what you can do one on one with someone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Problem is most blindies want everything for nothin'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I understnad, many of them are flat broke.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But just like we like to get paid for our studio chops and gig time,
>>>>>> programmers are the same way, they got to eat too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was very fortunate to find the guy I did who is a good musician and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> programmer too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It only takes money honey.
>>>>>> ha ha.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Goldfinga Productions"
>>>>>> <goldfingas at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 10:31 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] considering purchasing the behringer
>>>>>> BCF2000controlsurface, but have a few questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is the first thing I did. It's always a lot faster to get the
>>>>>>> file
>>>>>>> from someone who Artie has it though. It's all good, I'll get my
>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> it. LOL. Thanks for the info though. I wonder if we can get some
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> interested in creating a new accessible method for using reaper. We
>>>>>>> probably wouldn't be having all these control surface problems if we
>>>>>>> could get access to newer versions of reaper that have better
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> surface support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GF
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As usual; google the words cockos reaper klink's plug for BCF2000.
>>>>>>>> If you include the word cockos you don't get all the grim reaper
>>>>>>>> hits,
>>>>>>>> only the cockos forums; and even if I didn't spell Herr Klink's
>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>> correctly, it's close enough to get hits on several forum threads
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> download links to all about Klink's plug, and documentation on how
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use it to control Reaper.
>>>>>>>> I'm amazed that Patrick made the plug work with his Korg
>>>>>>>> MicroKontrol
>>>>>>>> instead of the Behringer BCF2000.
>>>>>>>> There is another control map for Reaper and the BCF2000 that is set
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> like the Behringer factory control maps.
>>>>>>>> It has its own website, and it's free.
>>>>>>>> I'll try to find a link to that one if you want to try it.
>>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2013 11:42 PM, Goldfinga Productions wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I will have to check out this plug-in. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> GF
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 7, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Patrick,
>>>>>>>>>> I downloaded Klink's map for BCF2000, but didn't get round to
>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>> what it controls.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, which variation of Klink's map  you get depends on which
>>>>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>>>> thread you go to; and it never seems to be finished, there's a
>>>>>>>>>> later
>>>>>>>>>> version every time I go to the Cockos forums.
>>>>>>>>>> Did you get enough documentation to understand what it controls?
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2013 4:47 PM, Patrick Perdue wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm using the Mackie protocol with my Nanokontrol, and Klinke's
>>>>>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>>>>>> surface plugin, which offers a better implementation of Mackie
>>>>>>>>>>> Control
>>>>>>>>>>> than the stock Reaper support.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2013 4:23 PM, Gordon Kent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The only one I've gotten to work reliably is the frontier
>>>>>>>>>>>> designs
>>>>>>>>>>>> tranzport, which isn't really a surface.  Make sure the control
>>>>>>>>>>>> midi
>>>>>>>>>>>> input and output of whatever surface you are trying to use is
>>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> control only in reaper. I may have gotten my alesis master
>>>>>>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>>>>>>> working, I don't remember, but it would have been with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> mackie
>>>>>>>>>>>> protycol.  I forget which mode I had to put the surface in,
>>>>>>>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>>>>>>> cubase,
>>>>>>>>>>>> sonar, pro tools, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gord
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Goldfinga Productions
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 1:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] considering purchasing the behringer BCF2000
>>>>>>>>>>>> controlsurface, but have a few questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have three control surfaces, none of them want to play
>>>>>>>>>>>> friendly
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper. Which control protocol should I be using? And then I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to figure out how to get each controller to activate that
>>>>>>>>>>>> particular protocol.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> GF
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, Patrick Perdue
>>>>>>>>>>>> <patrick at pdaudio.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have  a BCF2000 yet. I have a Korg NanoKotrol. To do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> describe, you'd have to use two profiles from the controller
>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one that acts as a standard control surface for track pan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mute/solo/arm, transport, etc. and another that sends out a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different set of CC values for something like a generic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> button/knob
>>>>>>>>>>>>> box for effects. Bad things happen if you try using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nanokontrol
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> manipulate effects when it's set up as a Mackie Universal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Control
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulator, and I assume any other controller using the Mackie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Universal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Control protocol would have similar issues. Unfortunately, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NanoKontrol editor, necessary to make this a bit easier by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> creating
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scenes on the controller's flash, thus making things a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100% inaccessible. So, at the moment, the only way I can do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliably is to clear the settings on the controller, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> defaults
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sending midi CC values starting at 1 all on channel 1, when I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use it for controlling effect
>>>>>>>>>>>> s, then pressing the key combination to get it into "Sonar
>>>>>>>>>>>> mode,"
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackie Control Universal mode, for actually acting as a control
>>>>>>>>>>>> surface.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What I eventually want to do is get something like a BCF2000,
>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> it for track stuff, then use the NanoKontrol as a dedicated box
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> controlling plugin parameters. Lots of people are doing this
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> BCF2000 and a BCR2000, which is all rotary encoders and
>>>>>>>>>>>> buttons,
>>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>>> the BCF2000 has flying faders. The BCR2000 has more available
>>>>>>>>>>>> controls,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but the Nanokontrol is a lot cheaper, and will serve just as
>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>> for my
>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am, however, frustrated by the lack of access to automation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you've created envelope points, you're stuck with them, unless
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still get to them in the undo history. If you can see, you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-draw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> envelope curves after they've been created, but with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ReaAccess,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much to be done. A fix was promised in the never to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> released
>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of ReaAccess, of course, as well as a way to create,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> edit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove automation from a keyboard, without the need for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>>>>>>>> surface at all., I.E. the way JSonar does it. I have faked my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> around that by overlapping items with the same material,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> panning
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing levels of each, then overlapping the items as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create envelopes, fades, linear panning, etc. without the use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> control surface, and it does work, though it's pretty hacky.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2013 10:06 PM, Jim Snowbarger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This sounds like mapping surface controls to control the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parameter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular effect on a particular track.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IS that right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose you wanted to assign some knob to the volume of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> track,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect parameter.  How would you do that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex H."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <linuxx64.bashsh at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 8:33 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] considering purchasing the behringer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BCF2000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surface, but have a few questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He means that in the FX window you can assign a parameter to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> button/pot using MIDI learn, and set up custom mappings to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workflow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/13, Justin Thornton <drummer060891 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you mean when you say "click on Param in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> routing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> page"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just a little confused
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 6, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> click on Param in the effects routing page
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RWP mailing list
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>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RWP mailing list
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>>>
>>
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>
>
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