[RWP] Automation

Mon Jun 10 06:08:29 EDT 2013

Question, how are you guys keeping track of what you've automated in a
project so far? One of the big reasons I went down the item-based
workflow route for this stuff was the ability to rename items so that
I can keep track of what I've done. I've put quite a bit of thought
into standardising the grunt work of recording and mixing the type of
material I work on most often to increase efficiency, but when clients
are asking for mix revisions, it can quickly become a lot less linear.
It's good to know at a glance what's going on on a given track without
having to listen through. Items allow me to jump right to the chunk of
audio I've processed, and if I've named them clearly enough I'll
remember what I did to it. I noticed Chris mentioned markers, but I'm
already using those to mark key sections of songs for quick
navigation.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Scott

On 6/10/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I just discovered something else nice.
>
> YOu can change the automation you lay down and it replaces the old or
> previous automation.
>
> I made a marker and hiked the volume way up with the alt up arrow, then went
>
> and dropped it back down in the same spot.
>
> And it honored that.
>
> That's one bitch I have about sonar, cubass let's you replace automation
> like reaper seems to but with sonar so far we have to delete pre existing
> automation before writing new stuff or it gets in a tug of war.
>
> And I still can't tell where I've set things to, but careful listening and
> looking at meters might give a clue.
>
> Anyway, this is more like it.
>
> And even on the keyboard one can always drop series of volume changes to get
>
> a smooth transition, not quite as fast as sonar but since you can over-ride
>
> your mistakes if you mess up a bit you can fix it easier so it evens out
> maybe.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derek Lane" <derek at pdaudio.net>
> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>
>
>> It can even be done from the qwerty keyboard.  Set a track to latch, play
>>
>> for a bit,  pause the project, make a change, and press play again.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 8, 2013, at 4:20 AM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I've not gotten that to work yet.
>>>
>>> But it's good to know it can be done.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Lane" <derek at pdaudio.net>
>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 2:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>
>>>
>>>> You can do that though.  Just pause the project, make your move and
>>>> resume playback.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:29 PM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It depends on the song, but some tracks really are.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if your fx are in the right place, and your just turning the volume
>>>>>
>>>>> up and down, it won't change how hard your pushing a compressor or
>>>>> whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless your talking about mixing in to a comp on the master bus which
>>>>> is a good idea because it'll make you make better choices when
>>>>> automating.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's like the compresssor is pushing back at you, they talked about
>>>>> that over on home recording show, those guys work a lot and know their
>>>>>
>>>>> shit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel like my path of learning kind of took the same as theirs did,
>>>>> but I picked up a whole lot of stuff I wasn't doing before but now I
>>>>> do, a little more paralel mixing and processing, and more use of
>>>>> spaces, like more than one reverb in a mix, well, I guess I'd done that
>>>>>
>>>>> with reverb on guitars, but not as a global effect so far.
>>>>>
>>>>> But volume changes, sometimes they aren't needed at all but remember
>>>>> those old days when you had 5 people at the board all with hands on
>>>>> faders assigned to do moves at certain places?
>>>>>
>>>>> Being able to subtly change the volume and get a vocal track nice and
>>>>> even without having to depend on a compressor so much is just way cool,
>>>>>
>>>>> especially on a classical or jazz track where a compressor will not be
>>>>>
>>>>> desired so much or very minimal at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> So yes, automation is a foundational thing for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also with midi, doing things like fading strings, or swelling orgns,
>>>>> you sure don't want the daw yanking your values back to last known
>>>>> value after you did something.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess that's where I got used to the leave it where I set it till I
>>>>> tell you to move way of working because
>>>>> I started off doing mostly midi, and that's how midi controlers act.
>>>>>
>>>>> But yes I hear what your saying,
>>>>> there are mixes where not much automation is needed and it just sounds
>>>>>
>>>>> fine the way it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do stuff like automated mutes too, like when I'm using auto-tune,
>>>>> I'll quickly sub in the auto-tuned track when I want a phrase or work
>>>>> to be auto-tuned and then the un-processed track when I want it to be
>>>>> heard.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you can't tell when the tracks are swapping.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the beauty of being able to get just in the right place stop the
>>>>>
>>>>> transport and put in a single move.
>>>>>
>>>>> I sure wish reaper would do that for us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe some day right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, what reaper does, it does well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to give it the nod for cross-fading and item based editing for
>>>>> sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sonar atleast as of 8.5.3 was kind of behind in that area, but x2 is
>>>>> supposed to really have upped the game with take lanes, and improved
>>>>> clip editing, and blah blah blah.
>>>>>
>>>>> But of course they broke the ui again, so we're back at square 1 or
>>>>> maybe 2 or 3 'grin'.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Chesworth"
>>>>> <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 6:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> For a really dramatic change though, I'd instinctively reach for a
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> track regardless of what DAW I'm in at the time because chances are
>>>>>> that big change would screw with whichever plugins were processing
>>>>>> that track. Are your mixes really as full of automation as this
>>>>>> conversation makes them seem? I can't recall hearing your work off
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> top of my head, but I'd like to be able to put some sound to the
>>>>>> theory. Not doubting your approach, it's just so different from my
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> that it sparks curiosity. For me, automation has always just been a
>>>>>> sweetener or a few finishing touches, rather than a building block or
>>>>>> a thing that holds the mix together. Probably ended up that way
>>>>>> because automation always felt a bit clunky and fragile in the DAW
>>>>>> where I learned the ropes, plus I'm not really a mixer at heart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/7/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> The only problem with that is that if you do a big change it sounds
>>>>>>> abrupt
>>>>>>> and you have to mess with the fade ins and outs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can't do little changes to get to the big change, a little at a
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> without splitting lots of items out and that get's messy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it's doable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you do have the fade in and fade out values on the items to work
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One nice thing about splitting items and setting different volumes
>>>>>>> for them
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is you can change it easily without having to draw a curve again,
>>>>>>> just to
>>>>>>> change the value if you thought that part needed to be a bit louder
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> softer or whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In sonar, if you mess something up, sometimes you can delete it, but
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> usually
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it means scratching the automation and starting over again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So splitting items can help work flow in this regard, you can
>>>>>>> audition a
>>>>>>> change and then change it and not have to worry about turning off
>>>>>>> automation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and such, or previously written automation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Indigo" <33indigo at charter.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:40 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks, I like your trick of splitting items, then automating just
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> selected item.
>>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2013 7:11 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>> To rename items, I move to them and then hit Shift+F2. Not sure if
>>>>>>>>> there's a separate field for comments or annotations like there is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> some other DAWs, so I just use this and keep the names brief and
>>>>>>>>> standardised.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I haven't tried automating items yet; just tracks.
>>>>>>>>>> I'll need to search in actions for set volume for selected item.
>>>>>>>>>> How do you rename items, or provide comments that can be read when
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> select an item?
>>>>>>>>>> Those would be great reminders on what automation you made at
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2013 4:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't seen the behaviour you're seeing in Sonar anywhere else
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> I can think of man, and tbh I can't quite fathom why it'd be
>>>>>>>>>>> useful to
>>>>>>>>>>> have that occurring by default. Perhaps we approach automation
>>>>>>>>>>> differently. In my world, the 3 most common examples of
>>>>>>>>>>> automation are
>>>>>>>>>>> little nudges of volume to draw focus to or divert focus away
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> aspects of a track, muting to reign in excessive something or
>>>>>>>>>>> other,
>>>>>>>>>>> or more rhythmical movements to make fx into an actual part.
>>>>>>>>>>> Point
>>>>>>>>>>> being that the track at it's normal level and panning position
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> serve its purpose untouched for the vast majority of the song by
>>>>>>>>>>> design. When I make a slight touch up, that's where I want the
>>>>>>>>>>> track
>>>>>>>>>>> to go back to straight afterward. The way you're used to working,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> assume you'd have to have two snapshots, one to make whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> tweak
>>>>>>>>>>> you want and another to get the track back to its previous state.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>>>> feels counterintuitive here!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You do realise you can automate items as well, right? So if you
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>> to bump up the guitars by 3 DB in the last chorus and want them
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> stay that way without sitting through all 4 repetitions of it,
>>>>>>>>>>> split
>>>>>>>>>>> an item, raise item volume by 3 db and boom, job done. I think
>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>> in terms of items is probably about as close as you'll get to
>>>>>>>>>>> snapshots. I like to  name items descriptively as I go when I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>> this stuff, so that if I come back to a project after months away
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>>>> have some reminders of the method behind the madness.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just some thoughts, maybe they'll help.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would think that making an automation move and having it stay
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> left it would be way more conducive to workflow, that's like
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> comeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> behind your shoulder and moving your knobs back where you left
>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> you made a change everytime.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But that's just me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want my daw second guessing me, if I want my volume or
>>>>>>>>>>>> pan or
>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever to change again, I'd like to do it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Having to select time areas is another step or filling
>>>>>>>>>>>> envelops,
>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>> sould be just as simple as applications key and s and you got a
>>>>>>>>>>>> snapshot,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to get in between words and very small moves at
>>>>>>>>>>>> precise
>>>>>>>>>>>> spots
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ard to do unless you can stop the transport in a specific spot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So as far as I'm concerned spnar has it on automation for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> way I
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> work, it doesn't get simpler than that, but reaper has it for
>>>>>>>>>>>> item
>>>>>>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>>>>>>> editing and cross fading and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just think if you had a 100 tracks.
>>>>>>>>>>>> project and you did automation on all of them, you'd have to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> fills
>>>>>>>>>>>> between every move you made, yikes,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just crazy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have dozens of automation moves,
>>>>>>>>>>>> say in a vocal track,
>>>>>>>>>>>> or a electrical fill track, and doing fills between each move
>>>>>>>>>>>> wow,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems so counter work flow, but really, is that the way it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> done on
>>>>>>>>>>>> protools and such?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if any other daw does it the way sonar does it, leaves
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> left it till you say change it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That just makes so much sense to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But I've been using sonar since for ever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "TheOreoMonster" <monkeypusher69 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 7:41 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't like it lol. Its similar to reaper where i haven't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> snapshot like there is in Sonar. The way it works is u enable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> write,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> play the track from the beginning.  to set that level or pan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing is  u just have to engage the transport in order to set
>>>>>>>>>>>>> automatation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for that entire track. Then you move to the part   where ever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> song
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> u want to actually put in the automated change and select that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> frame.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> make the changes to volume or pan or etc, then let the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transport
>>>>>>>>>>>>> play
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of that selection. Once you do that  it will automate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just that area thats selected and jump back to the other values
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plays past that selected area. So if u want to keep that change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> end
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you need to use the fill automation to the end of track similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In all honesty though this work flow in reaper and PT is a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conducive to my workflow and the way most engineers i hear of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> automation use it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 5:39 AM, "Chris Belle"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gTell me about it, try teaching 3 screen-readers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remebering ct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this but jsonar does that, and your in to protools a bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I ain't got there yet, but am making quite a bit of leg up on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not offering to teach reaper yet unless asked, I'd like to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more second nature with it, also I don't this there'll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business over here even at my low rates because of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set, but maybe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Considering sonar and reaper are both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several versions back for us, it's all a compromise and a big
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cludge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I do like the way reaper edits audio and does cross fading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ans
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How nice is automation for us in pt compared to reaper or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sonar?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Kent"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dbmusic at cybernex.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 6:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do when you are in the track properties dialog.  I just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I was confusing it with pro tools, which does work well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing effects parameters with the wiz wheels.  In pt, some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really change in tiny increments when using the keyboard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the mac while using the whiz wheel lets you run through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't used reaper in a while, and I get confused with all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different daw software packages around these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gord
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Westphal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 5:24 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gord!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow! How do you assign them to move the knobs for Pan and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volume?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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