[RWP] Automation

Chris Belle cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Sat Jun 8 11:14:54 EDT 2013 

I'll give it a shot so far the only things that worked were setting to 
write, making moves, then setting to read.

After the move the track always jups back to default values.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derek Lane" <derek at pdaudio.net>
To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation


> It can even be done from the qwerty keyboard.  Set a track to latch, play 
> for a bit,  pause the project, make a change, and press play again.
>
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2013, at 4:20 AM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I've not gotten that to work yet.
>>
>> But it's good to know it can be done.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Lane" <derek at pdaudio.net>
>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 2:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>
>>
>>> You can do that though.  Just pause the project, make your move and 
>>> resume playback.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:29 PM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It depends on the song, but some tracks really are.
>>>>
>>>> And if your fx are in the right place, and your just turning the volume 
>>>> up and down, it won't change how hard your pushing a compressor or 
>>>> whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Unless your talking about mixing in to a comp on the master bus which 
>>>> is a good idea because it'll make you make better choices when 
>>>> automating.
>>>>
>>>> It's like the compresssor is pushing back at you, they talked about 
>>>> that over on home recording show, those guys work a lot and know their 
>>>> shit.
>>>>
>>>> I feel like my path of learning kind of took the same as theirs did, 
>>>> but I picked up a whole lot of stuff I wasn't doing before but now I 
>>>> do, a little more paralel mixing and processing, and more use of 
>>>> spaces, like more than one reverb in a mix, well, I guess I'd done that 
>>>> with reverb on guitars, but not as a global effect so far.
>>>>
>>>> But volume changes, sometimes they aren't needed at all but remember 
>>>> those old days when you had 5 people at the board all with hands on 
>>>> faders assigned to do moves at certain places?
>>>>
>>>> Being able to subtly change the volume and get a vocal track nice and 
>>>> even without having to depend on a compressor so much is just way cool, 
>>>> especially on a classical or jazz track where a compressor will not be 
>>>> desired so much or very minimal at all.
>>>>
>>>> So yes, automation is a foundational thing for me.
>>>>
>>>> Also with midi, doing things like fading strings, or swelling orgns, 
>>>> you sure don't want the daw yanking your values back to last known 
>>>> value after you did something.
>>>>
>>>> I guess that's where I got used to the leave it where I set it till I 
>>>> tell you to move way of working because
>>>> I started off doing mostly midi, and that's how midi controlers act.
>>>>
>>>> But yes I hear what your saying,
>>>> there are mixes where not much automation is needed and it just sounds 
>>>> fine the way it is.
>>>>
>>>> I do stuff like automated mutes too, like when I'm using auto-tune, 
>>>> I'll quickly sub in the auto-tuned track when I want a phrase or work 
>>>> to be auto-tuned and then the un-processed track when I want it to be 
>>>> heard.
>>>>
>>>> And you can't tell when the tracks are swapping.
>>>>
>>>> That's the beauty of being able to get just in the right place stop the 
>>>> transport and put in a single move.
>>>>
>>>> I sure wish reaper would do that for us.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe some day right?
>>>>
>>>> Well, what reaper does, it does well.
>>>>
>>>> I have to give it the nod for cross-fading and item based editing for 
>>>> sure.
>>>>
>>>> Sonar atleast as of 8.5.3 was kind of behind in that area, but x2 is 
>>>> supposed to really have upped the game with take lanes, and improved 
>>>> clip editing, and blah blah blah.
>>>>
>>>> But of course they broke the ui again, so we're back at square 1 or 
>>>> maybe 2 or 3 'grin'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Chesworth" 
>>>> <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 6:53 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> For a really dramatic change though, I'd instinctively reach for a new
>>>>> track regardless of what DAW I'm in at the time because chances are
>>>>> that big change would screw with whichever plugins were processing
>>>>> that track. Are your mixes really as full of automation as this
>>>>> conversation makes them seem? I can't recall hearing your work off the
>>>>> top of my head, but I'd like to be able to put some sound to the
>>>>> theory. Not doubting your approach, it's just so different from my own
>>>>> that it sparks curiosity. For me, automation has always just been a
>>>>> sweetener or a few finishing touches, rather than a building block or
>>>>> a thing that holds the mix together. Probably ended up that way
>>>>> because automation always felt a bit clunky and fragile in the DAW
>>>>> where I learned the ropes, plus I'm not really a mixer at heart.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/7/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> The only problem with that is that if you do a big change it sounds 
>>>>>> abrupt
>>>>>> and you have to mess with the fade ins and outs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't do little changes to get to the big change, a little at a 
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> without splitting lots of items out and that get's messy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it's doable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you do have the fade in and fade out values on the items to work 
>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One nice thing about splitting items and setting different volumes 
>>>>>> for them
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is you can change it easily without having to draw a curve again, 
>>>>>> just to
>>>>>> change the value if you thought that part needed to be a bit louder 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> softer or whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In sonar, if you mess something up, sometimes you can delete it, but 
>>>>>> usually
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it means scratching the automation and starting over again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So splitting items can help work flow in this regard, you can 
>>>>>> audition a
>>>>>> change and then change it and not have to worry about turning off 
>>>>>> automation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and such, or previously written automation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Indigo" <33indigo at charter.net>
>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:40 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, I like your trick of splitting items, then automating just 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> selected item.
>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/7/2013 7:11 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>> To rename items, I move to them and then hit Shift+F2. Not sure if
>>>>>>>> there's a separate field for comments or annotations like there is 
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> some other DAWs, so I just use this and keep the names brief and
>>>>>>>> standardised.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/7/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I haven't tried automating items yet; just tracks.
>>>>>>>>> I'll need to search in actions for set volume for selected item.
>>>>>>>>> How do you rename items, or provide comments that can be read when 
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> select an item?
>>>>>>>>> Those would be great reminders on what automation you made at that
>>>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2013 4:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I haven't seen the behaviour you're seeing in Sonar anywhere else 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> I can think of man, and tbh I can't quite fathom why it'd be 
>>>>>>>>>> useful to
>>>>>>>>>> have that occurring by default. Perhaps we approach automation
>>>>>>>>>> differently. In my world, the 3 most common examples of 
>>>>>>>>>> automation are
>>>>>>>>>> little nudges of volume to draw focus to or divert focus away 
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> aspects of a track, muting to reign in excessive something or 
>>>>>>>>>> other,
>>>>>>>>>> or more rhythmical movements to make fx into an actual part. 
>>>>>>>>>> Point
>>>>>>>>>> being that the track at it's normal level and panning position 
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> serve its purpose untouched for the vast majority of the song by
>>>>>>>>>> design. When I make a slight touch up, that's where I want the 
>>>>>>>>>> track
>>>>>>>>>> to go back to straight afterward. The way you're used to working, 
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> assume you'd have to have two snapshots, one to make whatever 
>>>>>>>>>> tweak
>>>>>>>>>> you want and another to get the track back to its previous state. 
>>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>>> feels counterintuitive here!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You do realise you can automate items as well, right? So if you 
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to bump up the guitars by 3 DB in the last chorus and want them 
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> stay that way without sitting through all 4 repetitions of it, 
>>>>>>>>>> split
>>>>>>>>>> an item, raise item volume by 3 db and boom, job done. I think 
>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>> in terms of items is probably about as close as you'll get to
>>>>>>>>>> snapshots. I like to  name items descriptively as I go when I'm 
>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>> this stuff, so that if I come back to a project after months away 
>>>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>>> have some reminders of the method behind the madness.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just some thoughts, maybe they'll help.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I would think that making an automation move and having it stay 
>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> left it would be way more conducive to workflow, that's like 
>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>> comeing
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> behind your shoulder and moving your knobs back where you left 
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> you made a change everytime.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But that's just me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't want my daw second guessing me, if I want my volume or 
>>>>>>>>>>> pan or
>>>>>>>>>>> whatever to change again, I'd like to do it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Having to select time areas is another step or filling envelops,
>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>> sould be just as simple as applications key and s and you got a
>>>>>>>>>>> snapshot,
>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to get in between words and very small moves at 
>>>>>>>>>>> precise
>>>>>>>>>>> spots
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ard to do unless you can stop the transport in a specific spot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So as far as I'm concerned spnar has it on automation for the 
>>>>>>>>>>> way I
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> work, it doesn't get simpler than that, but reaper has it for 
>>>>>>>>>>> item
>>>>>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>>>>>> editing and cross fading and such.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just think if you had a 100 tracks.
>>>>>>>>>>> project and you did automation on all of them, you'd have to do 
>>>>>>>>>>> fills
>>>>>>>>>>> between every move you made, yikes,
>>>>>>>>>>> that's just crazy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have dozens of automation moves,
>>>>>>>>>>> say in a vocal track,
>>>>>>>>>>> or a electrical fill track, and doing fills between each move 
>>>>>>>>>>> wow,
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> seems so counter work flow, but really, is that the way it's 
>>>>>>>>>>> done on
>>>>>>>>>>> protools and such?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if any other daw does it the way sonar does it, leaves 
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> left it till you say change it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That just makes so much sense to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But I've been using sonar since for ever.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "TheOreoMonster" <monkeypusher69 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 7:41 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't like it lol. Its similar to reaper where i haven't 
>>>>>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> snapshot like there is in Sonar. The way it works is u enable 
>>>>>>>>>>>> write,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> play the track from the beginning.  to set that level or pan 
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> thing is  u just have to engage the transport in order to set
>>>>>>>>>>>> automatation
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for that entire track. Then you move to the part   where ever 
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> song
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> u want to actually put in the automated change and select that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>> frame.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> make the changes to volume or pan or etc, then let the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> transport
>>>>>>>>>>>> play
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of that selection. Once you do that  it will automate a
>>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> just that area thats selected and jump back to the other values 
>>>>>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> plays past that selected area. So if u want to keep that change 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> end
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> you need to use the fill automation to the end of track similar 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In all honesty though this work flow in reaper and PT is a lot 
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> conducive to my workflow and the way most engineers i hear of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>> automation use it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 5:39 AM, "Chris Belle" 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gTell me about it, try teaching 3 screen-readers and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remebering ct
>>>>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this but jsonar does that, and your in to protools a bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I ain't got there yet, but am making quite a bit of leg up on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not offering to teach reaper yet unless asked, I'd like to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more second nature with it, also I don't this there'll 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> business over here even at my low rates because of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> set, but maybe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Considering sonar and reaper are both
>>>>>>>>>>>>> several versions back for us, it's all a compromise and a big
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cludge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I do like the way reaper edits audio and does cross fading 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ans
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How nice is automation for us in pt compared to reaper or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sonar?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Kent"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dbmusic at cybernex.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 6:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do when you are in the track properties dialog.  I just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I was confusing it with pro tools, which does work well 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing effects parameters with the wiz wheels.  In pt, some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really change in tiny increments when using the keyboard with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the mac while using the whiz wheel lets you run through 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't used reaper in a while, and I get confused with all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different daw software packages around these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gord
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Westphal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 5:24 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gord!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow! How do you assign them to move the knobs for Pan and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volume?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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