[RWP] Automation

Chris Belle cb1963 at sbcglobal.net
Fri Jun 7 21:30:55 EDT 2013 

I'll have to post some of my work here so some folks don't think I'm a big 
wind bag, with nothing to show for it.

I  post lots of stuff to the midimag, but if your not on there, you probably 
missed it.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Chesworth" <scottchesworth at gmail.com>
To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation


> For a really dramatic change though, I'd instinctively reach for a new
> track regardless of what DAW I'm in at the time because chances are
> that big change would screw with whichever plugins were processing
> that track. Are your mixes really as full of automation as this
> conversation makes them seem? I can't recall hearing your work off the
> top of my head, but I'd like to be able to put some sound to the
> theory. Not doubting your approach, it's just so different from my own
> that it sparks curiosity. For me, automation has always just been a
> sweetener or a few finishing touches, rather than a building block or
> a thing that holds the mix together. Probably ended up that way
> because automation always felt a bit clunky and fragile in the DAW
> where I learned the ropes, plus I'm not really a mixer at heart.
>
> Scott
>
> On 6/7/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> The only problem with that is that if you do a big change it sounds 
>> abrupt
>> and you have to mess with the fade ins and outs.
>>
>> You can't do little changes to get to the big change, a little at a time
>> without splitting lots of items out and that get's messy.
>>
>> But it's doable.
>>
>> And you do have the fade in and fade out values on the items to work 
>> with.
>>
>> One nice thing about splitting items and setting different volumes for 
>> them
>>
>> is you can change it easily without having to draw a curve again, just to
>> change the value if you thought that part needed to be a bit louder or
>> softer or whatever.
>>
>> In sonar, if you mess something up, sometimes you can delete it, but 
>> usually
>>
>> it means scratching the automation and starting over again.
>>
>> So splitting items can help work flow in this regard, you can audition a
>> change and then change it and not have to worry about turning off 
>> automation
>>
>> and such, or previously written automation.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Indigo" <33indigo at charter.net>
>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>
>>
>>> Thanks, I like your trick of splitting items, then automating just the
>>> selected item.
>>> Indi
>>>
>>> On 6/7/2013 7:11 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>> To rename items, I move to them and then hit Shift+F2. Not sure if
>>>> there's a separate field for comments or annotations like there is in
>>>> some other DAWs, so I just use this and keep the names brief and
>>>> standardised.
>>>>
>>>> Hth
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> On 6/7/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>> I haven't tried automating items yet; just tracks.
>>>>> I'll need to search in actions for set volume for selected item.
>>>>> How do you rename items, or provide comments that can be read when you
>>>>> select an item?
>>>>> Those would be great reminders on what automation you made at that
>>>>> point.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Indi
>>>>> On 6/7/2013 4:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>> I haven't seen the behaviour you're seeing in Sonar anywhere else 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I can think of man, and tbh I can't quite fathom why it'd be useful 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> have that occurring by default. Perhaps we approach automation
>>>>>> differently. In my world, the 3 most common examples of automation 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> little nudges of volume to draw focus to or divert focus away from
>>>>>> aspects of a track, muting to reign in excessive something or other,
>>>>>> or more rhythmical movements to make fx into an actual part. Point
>>>>>> being that the track at it's normal level and panning position will
>>>>>> serve its purpose untouched for the vast majority of the song by
>>>>>> design. When I make a slight touch up, that's where I want the track
>>>>>> to go back to straight afterward. The way you're used to working, I
>>>>>> assume you'd have to have two snapshots, one to make whatever tweak
>>>>>> you want and another to get the track back to its previous state. 
>>>>>> That
>>>>>> feels counterintuitive here!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realise you can automate items as well, right? So if you want
>>>>>> to bump up the guitars by 3 DB in the last chorus and want them to
>>>>>> stay that way without sitting through all 4 repetitions of it, split
>>>>>> an item, raise item volume by 3 db and boom, job done. I think 
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> in terms of items is probably about as close as you'll get to
>>>>>> snapshots. I like to  name items descriptively as I go when I'm doing
>>>>>> this stuff, so that if I come back to a project after months away 
>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>> have some reminders of the method behind the madness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some thoughts, maybe they'll help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/7/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I would think that making an automation move and having it stay 
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> left it would be way more conducive to workflow, that's like someone
>>>>>>> comeing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> behind your shoulder and moving your knobs back where you left them
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> you made a change everytime.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's just me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't want my daw second guessing me, if I want my volume or pan 
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> whatever to change again, I'd like to do it myself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having to select time areas is another step or filling envelops,
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> sould be just as simple as applications key and s and you got a
>>>>>>> snapshot,
>>>>>>> and trying to get in between words and very small moves at precise
>>>>>>> spots
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ard to do unless you can stop the transport in a specific spot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So as far as I'm concerned spnar has it on automation for the way I
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> work, it doesn't get simpler than that, but reaper has it for item
>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>> editing and cross fading and such.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just think if you had a 100 tracks.
>>>>>>> project and you did automation on all of them, you'd have to do 
>>>>>>> fills
>>>>>>> between every move you made, yikes,
>>>>>>> that's just crazy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have dozens of automation moves,
>>>>>>> say in a vocal track,
>>>>>>> or a electrical fill track, and doing fills between each move wow,
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> seems so counter work flow, but really, is that the way it's done on
>>>>>>> protools and such?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if any other daw does it the way sonar does it, leaves it
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> left it till you say change it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That just makes so much sense to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I've been using sonar since for ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "TheOreoMonster" <monkeypusher69 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 7:41 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You wouldn't like it lol. Its similar to reaper where i haven't 
>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> snapshot like there is in Sonar. The way it works is u enable 
>>>>>>>> write,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> play the track from the beginning.  to set that level or pan etc.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thing is  u just have to engage the transport in order to set
>>>>>>>> automatation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for that entire track. Then you move to the part   where ever in 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> song
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> u want to actually put in the automated change and select that time
>>>>>>>> frame.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> make the changes to volume or pan or etc, then let the transport
>>>>>>>> play
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the end of that selection. Once you do that  it will automate a
>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> just that area thats selected and jump back to the other values 
>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> plays past that selected area. So if u want to keep that change to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> end
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you need to use the fill automation to the end of track similar to
>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In all honesty though this work flow in reaper and PT is a lot more
>>>>>>>> conducive to my workflow and the way most engineers i hear of doing
>>>>>>>> automation use it.
>>>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 5:39 AM, "Chris Belle" <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gTell me about it, try teaching 3 screen-readers and remebering ct
>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> this but jsonar does that, and your in to protools a bit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I ain't got there yet, but am making quite a bit of leg up on
>>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not offering to teach reaper yet unless asked, I'd like to get
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> little more second nature with it, also I don't this there'll be
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> business over here even at my low rates because of the different
>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>> set, but maybe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Considering sonar and reaper are both
>>>>>>>>> several versions back for us, it's all a compromise and a big
>>>>>>>>> cludge
>>>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I do like the way reaper edits audio and does cross fading ans
>>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How nice is automation for us in pt compared to reaper or sonar?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Kent"
>>>>>>>>> <dbmusic at cybernex.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 6:00 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> they do when you are in the track properties dialog.  I just
>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>> that I was confusing it with pro tools, which does work well with
>>>>>>>>>> changing effects parameters with the wiz wheels.  In pt, some of
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> really change in tiny increments when using the keyboard with
>>>>>>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> on the mac while using the whiz wheel lets you run through it.  I
>>>>>>>>>> haven't used reaper in a while, and I get confused with all these
>>>>>>>>>> different daw software packages around these days.
>>>>>>>>>> Gord
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Westphal
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 5:24 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Automation
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gord!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wow! How do you assign them to move the knobs for Pan and Volume?
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Ciao!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>>
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