[RWP] Help with Sinth VSTs
Keith Hinton
keithint1234 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 31 08:15:21 EST 2013
Um, oops. Noticed a typo in my previous message. That should have been
other file systems. not operating systems.
On 12/31/13, Keith Hinton <keithint1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Chris Bel is right.
> I do know for sure that loads of work has been done for Sonar, even
> the free JSonar works well.
> I did want to talk about a few things that I know are true however,
> even if you were to buy a Mac.
> You see, what a lot of people end up doing is buying Macs, and
> usually, they want Windows running on the actual underlying hardware,
> so they install Windows into the Macs, wich they can actually do
> thanks to Apple's BootCamp program.
> You can obtain all the drivers for Windows 7/8 on new Macs these days
> (they won't support anything lower) usually because of the
> processors/chip sets used, but once you do that, you're usually ready
> to go.
> However, a few things to be aware of.
> Apple tipicly ships Macs with 5400RPM drives.
> That is not the standard for audio.
> So you would probably have to make sure your Mac could support an
> upgrade drive in question, and as firmware updates come out, which you
> can't install unless you run OS X, you will find that your Mac moddle
> is usually compatible with most things.
> I know two mac friends of mine, who took out the stock 5400RPM drives
> that the machines came with, replacing them with 7200RPM platters for
> use with Sonar.
> Then they hooked up Firewire devices and whent rocking with the drive
> swappage. (the Mac uses an 800Firewire port) at least mine does, so if
> your device is a 400 you'd need an 800 to 400 adapter. You can pick
> them up cheaply on Amazon.
> I still use my Mac mostly as a Windows laptop more than as a Mac with
> Apple's software.
> From time to time I use OS X,but bairly.
> So I'm pointing out that the most compatible way to run Windows is to
> use Apple's BootCamp utility.
> However, once it creates a Windows partition, your Mac will instruct
> you to run Windows setup.
> At that point, you won't have speech (unless you use a talking Windows
> pre-install environment) or similar, and that's beyond the sscope of
> this list, so I won't cover anything potentially technical here.
> However, needless to say, you can do exactly what I've talked about,
> if you have enough money to order the parts, etc.
> One benifit of buying the Mac is that since BootCamp comes with OS X,
> your Windows manufacturer drivers (from Apple Inc) in this case, will
> already be available for download tipicly the latest BootCamp makes
> you download them to a USb stick.
> If you intend to use a USb stick by the way between a Windows/Mac
> computer,I'll just say this.
> Your best file system choice is FAT32 in that case.
> Other operating systems, like NTFS (Windows-based) tend to be
> incompatible and are not officially supported, beyond read-only
> access.
> At the end of the day, though, what you run Windows on is up to you.
> I would advise against running Sonar in a Virtual Machine environment,
> though on OS X.
> That won't work too well, and you'll never be able to use a firewire
> device in a VM because Firewire cannot be implemented guest side
> (meaning the virtual Windows instance). Just keep that in mind, if
> buying a Mac is what you wisht o do.
> Just be aware that if you do use a 7200RPM drive, it will use more
> battery power considerablly on these MacBook Pros, and more heat may
> be generated as a result.
> Just keep that in mind.
> Also, most service techs who are qualified to make these kinds of
> upgrades, tend to go off Apple specs released at whatever time your
> Mac was released for general shipments.
> So if they tel you things like Oh you can't install 8GB of RAM, then
> that's because they're going off what the specs say, and not
> necessarily that you updated your motherboard firmware to support that
> 8GB of RAM, etc.
> Always check to make sure that your Mac's moddle number, is compatible
> however with any particular hardware upgrade you intend to do or have
> somebody do for you, as the case may be.
> It would be a shame to buy RAM, have it installed, and then have the
> machine not be able to see it, as an example.
> Either way you do this stuff should a Mac be in your future, I thought
> I'd point these things out.
> Of course, you'll still be subject to the occasional Windows blue screens,
> etc.
> So if you can accept that, then go for it and get a Mac if that's your
> next DAW machine.
> Most of the high end MacBook Pros have Firewire ports still.
> And the earlier generation Macs available from the refurbished section
> of the Apple online store, from 2011 are still power houses usually.
> I don't think the 2012 or newer moddles support being able to install
> new drives, RAM, etc, however.
> So just keep that in mind.
> And, also keep in mind that self-servicing your Mac is usually not a good
> idea.
> If you can find an Apple authorized service shop, that's really the
> best way to go about it.
> They weren't really designed to be opened by an end-user.
> So if your not up to the task of fiddling with screw drivers and all
> that and buying tools to self-service anyways, as many still do, who
> consider themselves geek types, then I still suggest an Apple service
> shop any day of the year for any upgrades/repairs.
> Take care.
>
> On 12/30/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> The closest thing to a turnkey solution for a daw out there now that has
>> comprehensive tutorials, and a way to do most things you want to do
>> is caketalking from dancing dots for cakewalk sonar 8.5.3 on windows,
>> and then some third party devs have made
>> synths accessible with hsc for kontak libraries, and
>> other high end synths, some of this has trickled over to reaper,
>> but more of it is available on the sonar side.
>>
>> I use both reaper and sonar, and like them each for different reasons, I
>> tend to like reaper for an out and out audio editor for cross-fading and
>> post production stuff,
>> sonar's audio editing is kind of clunky, but it's midi editing is great.
>>
>> But technically you can do everything with both daws.
>>
>> Much more work has been done on the sonar side though because it was what
>> most of us used for years and years.
>>
>> re-access is considered abandon ware now, and isn't being developed
>> anymore.
>>
>> Caketalking just released it's last update for sonar 8.5.3
>> and there are rumors of a script package for sonar x3, but nothing for
>> sure.
>>
>> The interface changed so much that it's basically gonna take a whole
>> re-write.
>>
>> Some over here are using later versions of reaper,
>> and using re-access with work arounds, but most I think are more audio
>> guys
>> than midi guys.
>>
>> We've got a few pioneers in different camps, I know of one cubass user
>> who
>> hired a programmer to make things accessible for him,
>> a couple of protools users,
>> it all depends on how fast you need to get up to speed and what your
>> goals
>> are.
>>
>> Reaper holds lots of promise, and some are working being productive with
>> it
>> and making money,
>> but there is no fixed way for a blind person to grab a tutorial, and or
>> buy
>> a lesson plan, and get there.
>>
>> Perhaps some of the advanced users here would give lessons for hire,
>> and;
>> you could get them to teach you.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Keith Hinton
>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 6:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Help with Sinth VSTs
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>> I wanted to point outsomething important about you buyig a Mac if
>> that's something you intend to do.
>> The example applications we'll use are Apple's GarageBand and Logic
>> software, but you need to understand that not everything is sighted
>> help free, even on OS X.
>> Basicly, GarageBand used to be useable, we had effects, compressors,
>> and other things we could apply to music/audio.
>> However, when Logic ten and GarageBand ten came out (total software
>> rewrites), the effects, compressors, amp moddlers, and so on,
>> disappeared as far as Voiceover goes. Why? Because, Apple, much like
>> how this has been the case for Windows apps for years requiring
>> scripting as a result, has been visually making the interfaces
>> "visually appealing.".
>> This means, that amongst other things, all the controls are
>> non-standard, so VoiceOver will ever find them. They actually
>> digitally made BitMap nobs and other nice visually appealing graphic
>> icons for things in GarageBand, but this also means they have done the
>> same for the effects and compresors, etc.
>> We are left quite literally pounding button after button after button
>> after button, hoping to hell things happen when they happen, etc, as
>> of the rewrite.
>> The fact of the matter is, only sighted folks are having no trouble
>> with the latest Logic or GarageBand programs on OS X respectively.
>> And you'll be stuck with this horrible rewrite of an application, as
>> it ships on all new Macs with OS X 10.9.
>> Most of the keyboard shortcuts do not speak anymore, either as of the
>> GarageBand ten release rewrite either.
>> Conflicting reports exist for logic, but I'm just pointing out that if
>> you don't think that sighted help isn't also an issue on OS X, do not
>> be so sure of what you say before thinking about it first.
>> Voiceover isn't all it's cracked up to be necessarily, depending on
>> the circumstances in witch you use it.
>> there will always be an application that you or I cannot access
>> without sighted help to what extent depends on how many nonstandard
>> controls were used.
>> I'm predicting that someday, scripting heavily around badly coded
>> interfaces for OS X applications somehow will be the norm in the
>> future.
>> Just some interesting thoughts to consider.
>>
>>
>> On 12/30/13, Crystal Dennis <valkyriecelesyt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Thanks for all the help guys. I've been having issues with accessing
>> > the preference windows even with the JAWS cursors and clicking star
>> > and everything, and putting graphics on read all didn't do anything
>> in
>> > Eastwest. I wasn't aware that this would be an issue with sinths, so
>> > I am a little sad because I wanted to really use some orchestra
>> > sinths: The accessible ones I have right now are more dance sinths
>> (I
>> > have z3TA plus) I am currently on the hunt for any accessible
>> > orchestra sinths, so any help with that would be appreciated. I'm
>> > also debating having a sighted friend just set it up for me, but it's
>> > ashame that that has to be the solution to these sorts of problems
>> > other than just buying a mac that has more on board accessibility
>> lol.
>> >
>> > I will continue troubleshooting/testing sinths though, thanks
>> everyone!
>> >
>> > On 12/29/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>> >> Jackie, I once experimented with enabling audio devices and midi
>> devices
>> >> in Reaper with Wineyes 6.1, Jaws 10 and NVDA 2012.
>> >> The method was very similar in each for routing disabled over to the
>> >> number pad, focusing on it there, then pressing the star key for a
>> right
>> >> click to bring up the configuration dialog.
>> >> I don't think its either easier or more difficult with any of those,
>> and
>> >> I didn't find any impossible moves in Reaper for those particular
>> >> screenreaders.
>> >>
>> >> For making VST synths play that don't easily display their presets,
>> I
>> >> found it was hit and miss as to which screenreader displayed what
>> >> interface parameters.
>> >> Wineyes previous and next clip is the most useful screenreader move
>> I
>> >> found for locating elusive interface icons, but I'm not skilled
>> enough
>> >> in Jaws to utilize all its potential in its numPad cursors, nor did
>> I
>> >> ever learn to use its OCR function.
>> >> I don't know if anyone has yet found all that NVDA's object
>> navigation
>> >> can do, and I'm constantly surprised at what I can read with NVDA.
>> >> On this online surfing computer I now have only NVDA and Google
>> Chrome,
>> >> which together move like a lightening boltaround web pages.
>> >> Reaper itself dumps all automatable parameters is an awkward to use
>> >> list, but I never found any of those listed parameters useful to get
>> an
>> >> uncooperative synth to expose its presets, so you can play them.
>> >> Either by accident when roaming around the interface and left
>> clicking,
>> >> or with sighted help, I've got preset inc and dec arrows located, in
>> >> several synths, like NI's Massive, FM8 and Absynth 5, plus Zebra,
>> Nexus,
>> >> and others; and found ways to get back to those preset buttons,
>> which
>> is
>> >> at least miminal access.
>> >> With as many accessible VST synths that are available, like Z3TA,
>> which
>> >> readily exposes all its presets, same with Gladiator,Firebird, and
>> many
>> >> others, one could say why frustrate oneself with uncooperative
>> synths.
>> >> Still, some synths sound so beautiful we get sucked into unraveling
>> >> their puzzle.
>> >> With me it's Camel Audio's Alchemy, which I have been working on for
>> a
>> >> couple of years now.
>> >> Novation's AutoMap has been a blessing at getting every parameter of
>> VST
>> >> plugs onto hardware knobs and buttons, but it is no help at finding
>> and
>> >> navigating interface menus, dialogs, and other bit map screen
>> monkey
>> >> puzzles one needs for total access.
>> >> Indi
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/28/2013 4:31 PM, Jackie McBride wrote:
>> >>> Unfortunately, Jaws 10 is pretty old & may not be picking up on
>> stuff
>> >>> it needs to pick up on. Having said that, though, Crystall, there
>> are
>> >>> some settings I'd advise u to change in Jaws. First, u should
>> consider
>> >>> setting graphics to all--not labeled, & definitively not none.
>> Also,
>> >>> try going into your verbosity preferences & check to read the
>> >>> tooltips. Lastly, try seeing what happens if u set jaws to follow
>> pc.
>> >>> U might get some tooltips to read & be able to figure out what some
>> of
>> >>> those unlabeled graphics do, & then u can label 'em. Unset that
>> option
>> >>> when you're done, though, or it'll drive u absolutely nutso.
>> >>>
>> >>> U might also try NVDA & see if that provides any better results.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 12/28/13, Crystal Dennis <valkyriecelesyt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> I feel like that may be the problem: I have gone into the
>> preferences
>> >>>> dialogues and can only see very sparce things with the JAWS
>> cursor.
>> >>>> In that case: Does anyone know an accessible set of orchestra
>> sinths
>> >>>> I can test out?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 12/28/13, Gianluca Apollaro <gianluca.apollaro88 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi list,
>> >>>>> if some synths are working and some other arn't it probably means
>> that
>> >>>>> the not working ones have a non accessible interface and that you
>> have
>> >>>>> to click on some graphics to make them load their sounds.
>> >>>>> Hth,
>> >>>>> Best regards,
>> >>>>> Gianluca from Italy.
>> >>>>> Skype Id: gianluca8815
>> >>>>> Il 28/12/2013 04:46, Crystal Dennis ha scritto:
>> >>>>>> Yeah and every other sinth is working, so I'm wondering if I
>> should
>> >>>>>> just try another package until I find one that works...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 12/27/13, Drew <amockery at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> That is very odd. "Default" is, well, the default--in other
>> words
>> >>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>> shortcut that points to whatever you've set as your default
>> device.
>> >>>>>>> If
>> >>>>>>> there
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> are no devices, that's meaningless. You must have some sound
>> device
>> >>>>>>> otherwise you would not be able to hear JAWS, but for it to not
>> show
>> >>>>>>> up
>> >>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>> quite strange.
>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>> From: "Crystal Dennis" <valkyriecelesyt at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 7:16 PM
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] Help with Sinth VSTs
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> When I pull down the sound device menus I have:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Primary Sound capture driver -- when Direct Sound is selected
>> >>>>>>>> Microsoft Sound Mapper -- When Wave out is selected.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> those are the only 2 sound devices that show up and on midi I
>> have:
>> >>>>>>>> Microsoft Wavable Sinth Disabled (I tried right clicking and
>> no
>> >>>>>>>> menus
>> >>>>>>>> came up at all....I'm also using JAWS 10)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> The only things I can't get working are the sound libraries,
>> and
>> I
>> >>>>>>>> feel like there's something vital that I'm missing due to my
>> >>>>>>>> newbe-ness in this subject....sorry if this is too many
>> questions!
>> >>>>>>>> But all I get are drop down menus in preferences, no way to
>> right
>> >>>>>>>> click anything even with the JAWS cursor
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On 12/27/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Crystal, do you have a sound card that you installed into
>> your
>> >>>>>>>>> computer,
>> >>>>>>>>> or is there only the RealTech sound chip?
>> >>>>>>>>> If you have a third-party soundcard installed, or just
>> RealTech,
>> >>>>>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>>>> need to get it recognized in Reaper's preferences.
>> >>>>>>>>> You can play VST synths using the RealTech chip, but with
>> large
>> >>>>>>>>> delay
>> >>>>>>>>> or
>> >>>>>>>>> latency; between the moment you hit the note on the keyboard
>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> moment you hear the note.
>> >>>>>>>>> To get either your installed soundcard or the built in
>> RealTech
>> >>>>>>>>> chip
>> >>>>>>>>> enabled, press ctrl+P.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then navigate to audio.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then tab down to the field that shows either your soundcard,
>> or
>> >>>>>>>>> RealTech, and get enabled; instead of Disabled, after its
>> name;
>> by
>> >>>>>>>>> routing focus to the number pad.
>> >>>>>>>>> The method will depend on your screenreader, but it's similar
>> in
>> >>>>>>>>> Wineyes, Jaws and NVDA.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then focus at the numPad on the soundcard's name, or
>> Disabled.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then right click at the number pad
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The Configure Dialog should appear.
>> >>>>>>>>> Press enter on the Configure Dialog, and when it opens, place
>> >>>>>>>>> checkmarks
>> >>>>>>>>> on use as audio device, etcetera.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then arrow down to Midi Device and follow the same procedure
>> for
>> >>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> inputs and outputs for midi.
>> >>>>>>>>> Get Disabled routed over to the number Pad, then focus on the
>> >>>>>>>>> soundcard's name or Disabled, then right click and you should
>> get
>> >>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> midi configuration Dialog.
>> >>>>>>>>> Hit enter on it.
>> >>>>>>>>> When it opens, place checkmarks with your spacebar on Use as
>> midi
>> >>>>>>>>> device, etcetera.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then tab down to OK and hit enter, and you'll be taken back
>> to
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> track
>> >>>>>>>>> view.
>> >>>>>>>>> To get a synth to load, you need to install it in a folder,
>> or
>> >>>>>>>>> copy/paste its .dll into a folder, so Reaper can find it.
>> >>>>>>>>> I keep all VST's in C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VSTPlugins
>> which,
>> >>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>> I
>> >>>>>>>>> typed it correctly, is the exact path to my synths folder.
>> >>>>>>>>> To type in the path to where you are keeping VST plugIns,
>> press
>> >>>>>>>>> ctrl+P,
>> >>>>>>>>> then arrow down to VST, then tab down to where Reaper asks
>> you
>> to
>> >>>>>>>>> type
>> >>>>>>>>> in a path to your VST plugIns.
>> >>>>>>>>> Same here as when getting a soundcard enabled, be sure to
>> click
>> >>>>>>>>> enter
>> >>>>>>>>> on
>> >>>>>>>>> OK before exiting.
>> >>>>>>>>> To load a synth, press the letter F while on a selected track
>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> load dialog opens.
>> >>>>>>>>> Navigate with tab and arrows to the desired plugIn and hit
>> enter
>> >>>>>>>>> on
>> >>>>>>>>> it,
>> >>>>>>>>> and it loads to the selected track.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Now, while arrowed to the track with the loaded plug, tab and
>> >>>>>>>>> you'll
>> >>>>>>>>> get
>> >>>>>>>>> various recording options.
>> >>>>>>>>> Set monitor to Normal with your arrow keys, so you can hear
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> synth
>> >>>>>>>>> play.
>> >>>>>>>>> Be sure to hit enter to keep your settings.
>> >>>>>>>>> I can't tell you what to set as the recording source, since
>> I've
>> >>>>>>>>> never
>> >>>>>>>>> used the virtual keyboard, and have no idea how to set up a
>> synth
>> >>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>> play from virtual keyboard.
>> >>>>>>>>> Sorry,
>> >>>>>>>>> Indi
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/26/2013 7:52 PM, Crystal Dennis wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi again! I seriously need some help, so hopefully I came
>> to
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> right place :)
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I have been using reaper for awhile, and I recently wanted
>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> start
>> >>>>>>>>>> composing my own music tracks with instrument sinths. I'm
>> using
>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> virtual keyboard, and have downloaded a few sinth sets
>> but...I
>> >>>>>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>>> had this same problem with all of them: They haven't been
>> >>>>>>>>>> playing
>> >>>>>>>>>> when I load the track into reaper! Here's what I've been
>> doing:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> - Installing the software (I've tried Eastwest and Miroslave
>> >>>>>>>>>> Filharmonic with the same results for both - no audio)
>> >>>>>>>>>> - Then I've tinkered with my audio device settings with no
>> >>>>>>>>>> results.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Now I am very, very new with dealing with sinths, so my
>> questions
>> >>>>>>>>>> are:
>> >>>>>>>>>> Do I need some new software that reaper doesn't have? I
>> >>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>>> any Aceo drivers, could that be why? or does the Virtual
>> >>>>>>>>>> Keyboard
>> >>>>>>>>>> just not work for all plugins...I've tried spicy guitar also
>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>> it
>> >>>>>>>>>> doesn't play either. Sound magics VSTs have worked for me,
>> but
>> >>>>>>>>>> that's
>> >>>>>>>>>> about it really. There's something that says 32 Out and 8
>> Out
>> >>>>>>>>>> next
>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> some of the files, what does that mean? Are there any other
>> >>>>>>>>>> orchestra
>> >>>>>>>>>> sinth packs that work better with Reaper I could try out? I
>> >>>>>>>>>> really
>> >>>>>>>>>> just want to get something working because right now I have
>> a
>> ton
>> >>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>> GB taken up with nothing to show for it. So mainly I'm a
>> noob
>> >>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>> sinths who needs help!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for this novel! Any help would be greatly appreciated
>> :)
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Crystal
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>> >>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>> >>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>> >>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>> >>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>> >>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
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>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> RWP mailing list
>> >>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> RWP mailing list
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> RWP mailing list
>> >>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> RWP mailing list
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>> >>
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Keith
>> Home Phone:
>> 928-554-3936
>> Mobile Phone:
>> 928-713-6370
>> Primary email:
>> keithint1234 at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RWP mailing list
>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Keith
> Home Phone:
> 928-554-3936
> Mobile Phone:
> 928-713-6370
> Primary email:
> keithint1234 at gmail.com
>
--
Sincerely,
Keith
Home Phone:
928-554-3936
Mobile Phone:
928-713-6370
Primary email:
keithint1234 at gmail.com
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