[RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
Steve Spamer
steve at vipaudioaccess.com
Sat Apr 27 07:17:32 EDT 2013
Hey Scott, thanks for mentioning that, I'll update and see if there's any
difference. With the current set up, I'm not getting any issues so far, but
the main thing is whether or not others get problems. While I'm on it, are
there any users who are prepared to test iZotope Stutter Edit with HSC? I
only need 1 more tester for Reaper...so if anyone is interested, please
contact me :
steve at vipaudioaccess.com
It would mean downloading a 10 day demo of Stutter edit and giving an HSC a
run out. So, knowledge of HSC, Reaper and a willingness to communicate on
results is necessary. Cheers Steve.
Visit:
www.vipaudioaccess.com
for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and to
basically get involved!
-----Original Message-----
From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Scott Chesworth
Sent: 26 April 2013 23:25
To: Reapers Without Peepers
Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
Hey Steve,
Just noticed these two items in the change log of Reaper 4.4.0 which
went live recently:
+ VST: improved bridging behavior with embedded windows
+ Windows: topmost button tweaks to better work with embedded bridged
plug-ins
Not particularly specific is it, but figured it was worth drawing your
attention to those just in case it affects any of the results you've
been working with so far.
Scott
On 4/25/13, Indigo <33indigo at charter.net> wrote:
> I believe the generic interface's main advantage is less CPU drain, but
> most of our computers are fast enough these days that it's not an issue.
> I tried Reaper's generic interface, but, like you, got nothing that
> shift+P didn't provide.
> Actually, the plug's native interface is better for me, because using
> Window-Eyes Next and Previous Clip command, I discover preset inc and
> dec buttons on otherwise bit map interfaces, and can at least play the
> presets.
> I get presets on FM8, Absynth 5, Massive, Zebra and others by left
> clicking the preset up and down buttons; which are sometimes tiny up and
> down pointing arrows on the bit map screen; sometimes a plus and minus
> symbol.
> If I have no luck, I ask my wife to find them, but now I've learned the
> general screen area where program writers put them, and try clicking
> around the coordinates where they many times hang out, and discover the
> presets on my own.
> It's not all that convenient to access over a thousand fantastic FM8
> presets in 1 long list, but it's way better than no access at all.
> In Absynth 5, there also is a huge list of presets, more than a thousand
> I believe; plus there's another icon that gets into morphing together
> the sounds of several presets, providing an infinite number of brand new
> sounds.
> Lately, though, Camel Audio's Alchemy has addicted me, and I've got its
> catagory and preset buttons; its preset save dialog button; its
> modulation buttons; and I hope to get more access to it eventually.
> I never expect to get total access; since in Alchemy's granular
> synthesis; instead of the 4 A D S R steps you get in old fashioned
> synthesis; you can have thousands of individual grains; tiny steps
> along the sounds timeline, each with its own volume and other
> characteristics; way too microscopic for me to chase after.
> As a learning tool, right now I'm learning to substitute my own samples
> into an already configured Alchemy preset; to get custom sounds.
> Indi
>
> On 4/24/2013 7:26 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>> In my experience, the generic UI is only able to serve up elements of
>> the plug that can be controlled via automation anyway. I've not seen
>> it do anything that ReaAccess can't get to with Shift+P as yet, it
>> just presents the info differently. So yeah, seems like a bit of a
>> nonstarter for the type of work Steve is doing.
>>
>> Would be interested to know whether anybody who's spent more time on
>> it gets anything of use out of that generic plugin UI though. I could
>> very well be wrong in my assumption.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> On 4/24/13, Chris Belle <cb1963 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Steve, I agree.
>>>
>>> I'm not a reaper user as such yet, but from the little I know about
>>> programming, this would be the right thing to do.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Spamer" <steve at vipaudioaccess.com>
>>> To: "'Reapers Without Peepers'" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Indigo, regards to the generic interface, I'm not exactly sure, but
>>>> by
>>>> the very nature of "generic", I don't think it's a road to go down. If
>>>> things are kept as the native plugs window, then consistency will be
>>>> gained
>>>> across DAWs. For example using an HSC or AHK set in sonar and reaper
>>>> will
>>>> be the same when offset amounts have been calculated or the sets have
>>>> been
>>>> converted, cheers Steve.
>>>>
>>>> Visit:
>>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
>>>> to
>>>> basically get involved!
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>>> Sent: 24 April 2013 16:21
>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated
>>>> Process
>>>>
>>>> Oh, Steve, I meant to ask if switching to generic interface in Reaper's
>>>> preferences, VST, made any difference to the dedicated plug window.
>>>> I myself prefer the plugs native window when trying to find bit map
>>>> icons or buttons.
>>>> I was never sure what the generic interface is for, except it saves CPU
>>>> power for underpowered computers.
>>>> Indi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/23/2013 12:12 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>>>> Hi Indi, OK thanks for all the info, but something is definitely going
>>>>> on
>>>>> here. I've just switched to NVDA and inserted Massive. It popped up
>>>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>> dedicated window and I was able to alt tab from that window to Reapers
>>>> track
>>>>> view, where I could press F to open the FX page. Granted, the FX page
>>>>> didn't stay open, but I was able to alt tab between the bridged plug
>>>>> and
>>>>> Reapers track view no problem with NVDA. Now when I say bridged, I
>>>>> mean
>>>> this
>>>>> is a 64 bit plug in 64 bit Reaper, so really there's no need to bridge
>>>>> it,
>>>>> but if it wasn't then it would appear in the FX page natively,
>>>>> regardless
>>>> of
>>>>> whether a sighted person could see it and it was the sighted view or
>>>>> the
>>>>> Reaacces view. I don't know how they go about it, but for the
>>>>> purposes
>>>>> of
>>>>> us vips, this is what happens both ways:
>>>>> Bridged (in dedicated process per plugin)= plug will have its own
>>>>> window.
>>>>> Native= plug will be visible via the FX page, even though no
>>>>> parameters
>>>> may
>>>>> be shown to a screenreader, the plug is there, I can see it on screen.
>>>>> Problem if done auto=some plugs will be bridged (32 bit plugs in 64
>>>>> bit
>>>>> Reaper), but others won't (32 bit plugs in 32 bit Reaper and 64 bit
>>>>> plugs
>>>>> in 64 bit Reaper).
>>>>> This = 2 different views of a plugs interface that are different.
>>>>>
>>>>> Natively, you will only be able to offer an access solution for native
>>>>> plugs, 32 bit/32 bit and 64 bit/64 bit.
>>>>> In dedicated, you can offer an access solution for both, as they are
>>>>> the
>>>>> same because they are in that dedicated window...an HSC set done for a
>>>>> 32
>>>>> bit plug will work for the 64 bit version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Steve.
>>>>> I got all the parameters you mentioned via the method you described.
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit:
>>>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music
>>>>> and
>>>> to
>>>>> basically get involved!
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>>>> Sent: 23 April 2013 15:43
>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated
>>>>> Process
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>>> If you can alt+tab to whatever window, then Jaws is behaving
>>>>> differently
>>>>> from NVDA and Window-Eyes in this particular situation.
>>>>> I just checked, with two different third party plugs inserted, and
>>>>> when
>>>>> in track view I alt+tab and get only the dedicated plug window; can't
>>>>> alt+tab again and get the FX Routing view.
>>>>> If I hit escape while in the dedicated window I can return to track
>>>>> view; then press F to open FX Routing; but there's no way in NVDA or
>>>>> Wineyes I can get from the dedicated window directly to FX Routing
>>>>> with
>>>>> alt+tab.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are some really powerful access features in FX Routing View.
>>>>> Maybe Try this:
>>>>> Insert a synth with a very inaccessible bit map interface, like Tone
>>>>> Two
>>>>> RayBlaster, or Massive.
>>>>> Go to FX Routing view.
>>>>> Tab to Param.
>>>>> Right click with the applications key.
>>>>> You get a context menu.
>>>>> Here's what I get for RayBlaster, as I arrow down:
>>>>> 1. Default Control Mapper SubMenu Unavailable;
>>>>> 2. No Recently touched Parameters Unavailable;
>>>>> 3.Effects Parameter List SubMenu F;
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, now press right arrow on Effects Parameter List SubMenu F ;
>>>>> You get Show In Track Controls SubMenu S;
>>>>> Press Enter;
>>>>> and you'll get a ton of parameters that you can up/down arrow
>>>>> through.
>>>>> Okay, left arrow back to the subMenus.
>>>>> Below Show In Track Controls SubMenu S you have:
>>>>> Show Track Envelopes SubMenu S;
>>>>> Parameter Modulation SubMenu P;
>>>>> Learn SubMenu L.
>>>>> Learn is Midi Learn, to assign parameters to control surfaces, and
>>>>> Parameter Modulation allows any parameter to modulate any other
>>>>> parameter, very powerful.
>>>>> As to the sighted user being able to view FX Routing view, no, they
>>>>> can't see it, because it's a part of ReaAccess.
>>>>> Reaper's standard FX Routing looks very different, a sort of matrix
>>>>> grid
>>>>> that Ivan realized blind users could never cope with.
>>>>> What I'm saying is that ReaAccess FX Routing is very important, and
>>>>> non
>>>>> jaws users also need to be able to get to it and quickly return to the
>>>>> dedicated plug windows, for its benefits.
>>>>> Maybe someone else who is not in Jaws can confirm what I'm
>>>>> experiencing in NVDA and Wineyes??
>>>>>
>>>>> I think a solution might be to create a macro that would quickly click
>>>>> on the line in FX Routing: Bridged PlugIn... Show UI
>>>>>
>>>>> In NVDA, a simple press of enter on Show UI doesn't suffice.
>>>>> I need to press Move to Focus; then press NumPad Insert+NumPad Enter
>>>>> to
>>>>> get the dedicated window to return when I press alt+tab.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Indi
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/22/2013 6:06 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Indi. That's good you got the dedicated window, but I was a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>> confused at the explanation of closing it down with the escape key.
>>>>>> You
>>>>> can
>>>>>> keep the bridged window open and alt tab to Reaper and have whatever
>>>>> window
>>>>>> you want open in Reaper as well, I just went and tried it. So,
>>>>>> basically
>>>>>> you have a bridged window open with normal behaviour in Reaper,
>>>>>> whether
>>>>> it's
>>>>>> in the track view or FX view.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To try and explain why this is necessary would mean more typing than
>>>>>> I
>>>>> feel
>>>>>> like doing <grin, but the key issue is focus focus focus! Meaning,
>>>>>> for
>>>>> HSC
>>>>>> for example to have this full window to work with, it needs to be
>>>>>> dedicated...similar to the way sonar handles it. In sonar we can
>>>>>> control
>>>>>> tab to and from an open plugs properties and the track view etc. In
>>>>> Reaper
>>>>>> we want the same behaviour, then HSC can do its stuff, automatically
>>>>> switch
>>>>>> sets etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now imagine the FX window in Reaper. To us it's called the FX window
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> that's what our screenreaders are focused on, but to a sighted
>>>>>> person,
>>>>> they
>>>>>> can manipulate that window to see plugs parameters, activate them and
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> whatever they want. I'm guessing they could drag them and resize
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't know, but I bet they can. Anyway, to my point. It would be
>>>>>> easy
>>>>>> enough to create hotspots that click on those controls in that
>>>>>> window,
>>>> but
>>>>>> it would not be possible to have other code managing what those spots
>>>> were
>>>>>> clicking on. So, creating a hotspot at 100X100, may activate a
>>>>>> button,
>>>>>> which is what we want, but the next time we open Reaper or perhaps
>>>>>> insert
>>>>>> another plug, it could easily move that window and the location of
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> button...so when we activate that hotspot we did, it will not be
>>>>>> clicking
>>>>> on
>>>>>> where we first defined it...and that could cause big problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now even if that wasn't the case, the chances of the said hotspot
>>>>>> working
>>>>> on
>>>>>> multiple machines that could have slightly different configurations
>>>>>> is
>>>>> very
>>>>>> small. We need a consistent environment in order to have access
>>>> solutions
>>>>>> work on other machines, it maybe fine for personal use, but problems
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> arise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was chatting with Gianluca the other night and he was actually
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> Reaper 3...and I forget what result he got with Reaper 4.X, but I'm
>>>>>> sure
>>>>> his
>>>>>> AHK scripts are excellent, but what I'm not sure about is how many
>>>>> machines
>>>>>> they're being used on. We all have to work together to hit the right
>>>> spot
>>>>>> so to speak, so thanks again for your input, cheers Steve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit:
>>>>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>>>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music
>>>>>> and
>>>>> to
>>>>>> basically get involved!
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>>>>> Sent: 22 April 2013 22:31
>>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated
>>>>>> Process
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>>>> Here's my experience with a third party plug, RayBlaster, 64; a
>>>>>> definitely nice demo, which I installed and checked out with NVDA, in
>>>>>> Windows 7 64 bits.
>>>>>> In the FX Routing view; with In Dedicated Process plus Always on top;
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> definitely could; by doing NVDA's equivalent of routing to PC cursor,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> whatever it is called in Jaws that gets focus onto the number pad; I
>>>>>> left clicked on the line: Tone Two RayBlaster Demo Bridged, May Be in
>>>>>> Top Level Window, Click on UI.
>>>>>> Then I could alt+tab between the track view and that bridged window
>>>>>> containing RayBlaster.
>>>>>> If this is required to give you the dedicated window you need to
>>>>>> create
>>>>>> HSC or AHK scripts, then that's the solution.
>>>>>> That dedicated window was lost each time; as soon as I hit escape to
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> back to track view, because you can't arm a track, you can't start
>>>>>> record, or anything else to do with Reaper tracks while in FX
>>>>>> Routing,
>>>>>> so far as I can tell; those can only be done from track view.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, with the dedicated window open; you can't get at any of the
>>>>>> usual
>>>>>> buttons available in FX Routing, like Add, to add an effect plug, or
>>>>>> Param; to get at the plug's parameters, like if you want to assign
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> to a control surface with midi learn.
>>>>>> You only need to hit escape to dismiss the dedicated window and go
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> to track view, then hit F to return to a normal FX Routing view, with
>>>>>> Add, Param, etcetera, so you can easily have both the dedicated
>>>>>> window
>>>>>> and the usual FX Routing view.
>>>>>> Each time, After returning to FX routing I needed to again left click
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> that line about bridged plug may be in top level window, click on UI;
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> get the dedicated window to return when I alt+tab.
>>>>>> I think Genluca Apollo and his friends in Italy created Reaper Auto
>>>>>> Hot
>>>>>> Key scripts for NI Kontakt without doing this, though, so maybe
>>>>>> there's
>>>>>> another method?
>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/22/2013 12:25 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Indi and thanks for your efforts. you're definitely missing
>>>> something
>>>>>>> there, as the whole reason for in dedicated process per plugin is to
>>>>> allow
>>>>>>> the plug to have its own window. When you've inserted the plug, in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>> FX
>>>>>>> window you can tab over to "UI", and double left click it with the
>>>> numpad
>>>>>>> cursor, then the plug should open in that dedicated window.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You said there's no reason to bridge a 32 plug in a 32 bit DAW, well
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>> agree
>>>>>>> with you from a sighted point of view, but we need a window where
>>>>>>> HSC
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>> AHK
>>>>>>> can focus on...without that, the plugs window is only about 2
>>>>>>> thirds
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> FX window and most importantly, not in focus for a
>>>>>>> screenreader...it's
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> FX window that's in focus. Making those changes brings focus to the
>>>> plug
>>>>>>> and not to the FX window with the plug in the background to us...but
>>>>>>> remember, it's not in the background for a sighted dood, it's
>>>>>>> visible
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> screen. Cheers Steve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit:
>>>>>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>>>>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> basically get involved!
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>>>>>> Sent: 22 April 2013 13:57
>>>>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>>>>> Subject: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>>>>> In my XP 32 bit daw; running Window-eyes 6.1; I tried to get what
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> are finding in Windows 7 64 bit and Jaws, but just couldn't.
>>>>>>> I selected Always on Top in the view menu of Reaper 4.32; also
>>>>>>> selected
>>>>>>> In Dedicated Process in the Preferences Compatibility settings, but
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> couldn't get either Massive or Absynth 5's interface to show up when
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> tabbed.
>>>>>>> I did get the words Bridged PlugIn May be in Top Level Window, or
>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>> to that effect; to show up in Absynth's native interface, at Wineyes
>>>>>>> numPad; but otherwise Absynth's interface looked the same.
>>>>>>> When I pressed tab I just heard Window-Eyes version 6.1, same as
>>>>>>> always.
>>>>>>> Also, I didn't get either Massive or Absynth's parameters or value
>>>>>>> edit
>>>>>>> boxes to show up at the arrow keys, as is the case with the bundled
>>>>>>> Reaper plugs.
>>>>>>> Just to learn what would happen, I tried other choices in
>>>>>>> Compatibility,
>>>>>>> In Separate Process; also In Native Interface, Not Bridged, and
>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>> were the same.
>>>>>>> I got no advantage from tabbing,and in the choice In Dedicated
>>>>>>> Process
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> at first couldn't access Massive or Absynth's s usual interface; at
>>>>>>> Wineyes numPad; but pressed escape and then F to return to FX
>>>>>>> Routing;
>>>>>>> and eventually got the usual Massive or Absynth interface,which is
>>>>>>> practically empty anyway, since it's all bit map imagery.
>>>>>>> I returned to the default Compatibility setting, which is I think
>>>>>>> Auto-select; but kept Always on top, which didn't seem to either
>>>>>>> hurt
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> help anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think I'm going to be of any assistance to your efforts,
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> bridging 32 bit plugs doesn't make much sense in 32 bit XP; and; as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> indicated; Wineyes won't run 64 bit Reaper along with ReaAccess.
>>>>>>> I could have tried NVDA in XP; but it wouldn't have proved much;
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> until I learn how to do it I can't get anything from plug interfaces
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the numPad with NVDA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe Always on Top; or In Dedicated Process only matters to Jaws, I
>>>>>>> don't know until I install Jaws on 64 bit Windows and try it.
>>>>>>> Sorry,
>>>>>>> Indi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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