[RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process

Wed Apr 24 17:03:57 EDT 2013

Steve, I agree.

    I'm not a reaper user as such yet, but from the little I know about 
programming, this would be the right thing to do.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Spamer" <steve at vipaudioaccess.com>
To: "'Reapers Without Peepers'" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process

> Hi Indigo, regards to the generic interface, I'm not exactly sure, but by
> the very nature of "generic", I don't think it's a road to go down.  If
> things are kept as the native plugs window, then consistency will be 
> gained
> across DAWs.  For example using an HSC or AHK set in sonar and reaper will
> be the same when offset amounts have been calculated or the sets have been
> converted, cheers Steve.
>
> Visit:
> www.vipaudioaccess.com
> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and 
> to
> basically get involved!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
> Sent: 24 April 2013 16:21
> To: Reapers Without Peepers
> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>
> Oh, Steve, I meant to ask if switching to generic interface in Reaper's
> preferences, VST, made any difference to the dedicated plug window.
> I myself prefer the plugs native window when trying to find bit map
> icons or buttons.
> I was never sure what the generic interface is for, except it saves CPU
> power for underpowered computers.
> Indi
>
>
> On 4/23/2013 12:12 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>> Hi Indi, OK thanks for all the info, but something is definitely going on
>> here. I've just switched to NVDA and inserted Massive.  It popped up in a
>> dedicated window and I was able to alt tab from that window to Reapers
> track
>> view, where I could press F to open the FX page.  Granted, the FX page
>> didn't stay open, but I was able to alt tab between the bridged plug and
>> Reapers track view no problem with NVDA. Now when I say bridged, I mean
> this
>> is a 64 bit plug in 64 bit Reaper, so really there's no need to bridge 
>> it,
>> but if it wasn't then it would appear in the FX page natively, regardless
> of
>> whether a sighted person could see it and it was the sighted view or the
>> Reaacces view.  I don't know how they go about it, but for the purposes 
>> of
>> us vips, this is what happens both ways:
>> Bridged (in dedicated process per plugin)= plug will have its own window.
>> Native= plug will be visible via the FX page, even though no parameters
> may
>> be shown to a screenreader, the plug is there, I can see it on screen.
>> Problem if done auto=some plugs will be bridged (32 bit plugs in 64 bit
>> Reaper), but others won't (32 bit plugs in 32 bit Reaper and 64  bit 
>> plugs
>> in 64 bit Reaper).
>> This = 2 different views of a plugs interface that are different.
>>
>> Natively, you will only be able to offer an access solution for native
>> plugs, 32 bit/32 bit and 64 bit/64 bit.
>> In dedicated, you can offer an access solution for both, as they are the
>> same because they are in that dedicated window...an HSC set done for a 32
>> bit plug will work for the 64 bit version.
>>
>> Cheers Steve.
>> I got all the parameters you mentioned via the method you described.
>>
>> Visit:
>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
> to
>> basically get involved!
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>> Sent: 23 April 2013 15:43
>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>> If you can alt+tab to whatever window, then Jaws is behaving differently
>> from NVDA and Window-Eyes in this particular situation.
>> I just checked, with two different third party plugs inserted, and when
>> in track view I alt+tab and get only the dedicated plug window; can't
>> alt+tab again and get the FX Routing view.
>> If I hit escape while in the dedicated window I can return to track
>> view; then press F to open FX Routing; but there's no way in NVDA or
>> Wineyes I can get from the dedicated window directly to FX Routing with
>> alt+tab.
>>
>> There are some really powerful access features in FX Routing View.
>> Maybe Try this:
>> Insert a synth with a very inaccessible bit map interface, like Tone Two
>> RayBlaster, or Massive.
>> Go to FX Routing view.
>> Tab to Param.
>> Right click with the applications key.
>> You get a context menu.
>> Here's what I get for  RayBlaster, as I arrow down:
>> 1. Default Control Mapper SubMenu Unavailable;
>> 2. No Recently touched Parameters Unavailable;
>> 3.Effects Parameter List SubMenu F;
>>
>> Okay, now press right arrow on Effects Parameter List SubMenu F ;
>> You get Show In Track Controls SubMenu S;
>> Press Enter;
>>    and you'll get a ton of parameters that you can up/down arrow through.
>> Okay, left arrow back to the subMenus.
>> Below Show In Track Controls SubMenu S you have:
>> Show Track Envelopes SubMenu S;
>> Parameter Modulation SubMenu P;
>> Learn SubMenu L.
>> Learn is Midi Learn, to assign parameters to control surfaces, and
>> Parameter Modulation allows any parameter to modulate any other
>> parameter, very powerful.
>> As to the sighted user being able to view FX Routing view, no, they
>> can't  see it, because it's a part of ReaAccess.
>> Reaper's standard FX Routing looks very different, a sort of matrix grid
>> that Ivan realized blind users could never cope with.
>> What I'm saying is that ReaAccess FX Routing is very important, and non
>> jaws users also need to be able to get to it and quickly return to the
>> dedicated plug windows, for its benefits.
>>    Maybe someone else who is not in Jaws can confirm what I'm
>> experiencing in NVDA and Wineyes??
>>
>> I think a solution might be to create a macro that would quickly click
>> on the line in FX Routing: Bridged PlugIn... Show UI
>>
>> In NVDA, a simple press of enter on Show UI doesn't suffice.
>> I need to press Move to Focus; then press NumPad Insert+NumPad Enter to
>> get the dedicated window to return when I press alt+tab.
>> Thanks,
>> Indi
>>
>> On 4/22/2013 6:06 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>> Hi Indi.  That's good you got the dedicated window, but I was a little
>>> confused at the explanation of closing it down with the escape key.  You
>> can
>>> keep the bridged window open and alt tab to Reaper and have whatever
>> window
>>> you want open in Reaper as well, I just went and tried it.  So, 
>>> basically
>>> you have a bridged window open with normal behaviour in Reaper, whether
>> it's
>>> in the track view or FX view.
>>>
>>> To try and explain why this is necessary would mean more typing than I
>> feel
>>> like doing <grin, but the key issue is focus focus focus!  Meaning, for
>> HSC
>>> for example to have this full window to work with, it needs to be
>>> dedicated...similar to the way sonar handles it.  In sonar we can 
>>> control
>>> tab to and from an open plugs properties and the track view etc.  In
>> Reaper
>>> we want the same behaviour, then HSC can do its stuff, automatically
>> switch
>>> sets etc.
>>>
>>> Now imagine the FX window in Reaper.  To us it's called the FX window 
>>> and
>>> that's what our screenreaders are focused on, but to a sighted person,
>> they
>>> can manipulate that window to see plugs parameters, activate them and do
>>> whatever they want.  I'm guessing they could drag them and resize them, 
>>> I
>>> don't know, but I bet they can.  Anyway, to my point.  It would be easy
>>> enough to create hotspots that click on those controls in that window,
> but
>>> it would not be possible to have other code managing what those spots
> were
>>> clicking on.  So, creating a hotspot at 100X100, may activate a button,
>>> which is what we want, but the next time we open Reaper or perhaps 
>>> insert
>>> another plug, it could easily move that window and the location of that
>>> button...so when we activate that hotspot we did, it will not be 
>>> clicking
>> on
>>> where we first defined it...and that could cause big problems.
>>>
>>> Now even if that wasn't the case, the chances of the said hotspot 
>>> working
>> on
>>> multiple machines that could have slightly different configurations is
>> very
>>> small.  We need a consistent environment in order to have access
> solutions
>>> work on other machines, it maybe fine for personal use, but problems 
>>> will
>>> arise.
>>>
>>> I was chatting with Gianluca the other night and he was actually using
>>> Reaper 3...and I forget what result he got with Reaper 4.X, but I'm sure
>> his
>>> AHK scripts are excellent, but what I'm not sure about is how many
>> machines
>>> they're being used on.  We all have to work together to hit the right
> spot
>>> so to speak, so thanks again for your input, cheers Steve.
>>>
>>> Visit:
>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
>> to
>>> basically get involved!
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>> Sent: 22 April 2013 22:31
>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>>
>>> Hi Steve,
>>> Here's my experience with a third party plug, RayBlaster, 64; a
>>> definitely nice demo, which I installed and checked out with NVDA, in
>>> Windows 7 64 bits.
>>> In the FX Routing view; with In Dedicated Process plus Always on top; I
>>> definitely could; by doing NVDA's equivalent of routing to PC cursor, or
>>> whatever it is called in Jaws that gets focus onto the number pad; I
>>> left clicked on the line: Tone Two RayBlaster Demo Bridged, May Be in
>>> Top Level Window, Click on UI.
>>> Then I could alt+tab between the track view and that bridged window
>>> containing  RayBlaster.
>>> If this is required to give you the dedicated window you need to create
>>> HSC or AHK scripts, then that's the solution.
>>> That dedicated window was lost each time; as soon as I hit escape to go
>>> back to track view, because you can't arm a track, you can't start
>>> record, or anything else to do with Reaper tracks while in FX Routing,
>>> so far as I can tell; those can only be done from track view.
>>>
>>> Also, with the dedicated window open; you can't get at any of the usual
>>> buttons available in FX Routing, like Add, to add an effect plug, or
>>> Param; to get at the plug's parameters, like if you want to assign them
>>> to a control surface with midi learn.
>>> You only need to hit escape to dismiss the dedicated window and go back
>>> to track view, then hit F to return to a normal FX Routing view, with
>>> Add, Param, etcetera, so you can easily have both the dedicated window
>>> and the usual FX Routing view.
>>> Each time, After returning to FX routing I needed to again left click on
>>> that line about bridged plug may be in top level window, click on UI; to
>>> get the dedicated window to return when I alt+tab.
>>> I think Genluca Apollo and his friends in Italy created Reaper Auto Hot
>>> Key scripts for NI Kontakt without doing this, though, so maybe there's
>>> another method?
>>> Indi
>>>
>>> .
>>>     or
>>>
>>> On 4/22/2013 12:25 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>>> Hi Indi and thanks for your efforts.  you're definitely missing
> something
>>>> there, as the whole reason for in dedicated process per plugin is to
>> allow
>>>> the plug to have its own window.  When you've inserted the plug, in the
>> FX
>>>> window you can tab over to "UI", and double left click it with the
> numpad
>>>> cursor, then the plug should open in that dedicated window.
>>>>
>>>> You said there's no reason to bridge a 32 plug in a 32 bit DAW, well I
>>> agree
>>>> with you from a sighted point of view, but we need a window where HSC 
>>>> or
>>> AHK
>>>> can focus on...without that, the plugs window is only about  2 thirds 
>>>> of
>>> the
>>>> FX window and  most importantly, not in focus for a screenreader...it's
>>> the
>>>> FX window that's in focus.  Making those changes brings focus to the
> plug
>>>> and not to the FX window with the plug in the background to us...but
>>>> remember, it's not in the background for a sighted dood, it's visible 
>>>> on
>>>> screen.  Cheers Steve.
>>>>
>>>> Visit:
>>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
>>> to
>>>> basically get involved!
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>>> Sent: 22 April 2013 13:57
>>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>>> Subject: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>>>
>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>> In my XP 32 bit daw; running Window-eyes 6.1; I tried to get what you
>>>> are finding in Windows 7 64 bit and Jaws, but just couldn't.
>>>> I selected Always on Top in the view menu of Reaper 4.32; also selected
>>>> In Dedicated Process in the Preferences Compatibility settings, but I
>>>> couldn't get either Massive or Absynth 5's interface to show up when I
>>>> tabbed.
>>>> I did get the words Bridged PlugIn May be in Top Level Window, or words
>>>> to that effect; to show up in Absynth's native interface, at Wineyes
>>>> numPad; but  otherwise Absynth's interface looked the same.
>>>> When I pressed tab I just heard Window-Eyes version 6.1, same as 
>>>> always.
>>>> Also, I didn't get either Massive or Absynth's parameters or value edit
>>>> boxes to show up at the arrow keys, as is the case with the bundled
>>>> Reaper plugs.
>>>> Just to learn what would happen, I tried other choices in 
>>>> Compatibility,
>>>> In Separate Process; also In Native Interface, Not Bridged, and results
>>>> were the same.
>>>> I got no advantage from tabbing,and in the choice In Dedicated Process 
>>>> I
>>>> at first couldn't access Massive or Absynth's s usual interface; at
>>>> Wineyes numPad;  but pressed escape and then F to return to FX Routing;
>>>> and eventually got the usual Massive or Absynth interface,which is
>>>> practically empty anyway, since it's all bit map imagery.
>>>> I returned to the default Compatibility setting, which is I think
>>>> Auto-select; but kept Always on top, which didn't seem to either hurt 
>>>> or
>>>> help anything.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think I'm going to be of any assistance to your efforts, since
>>>> bridging 32 bit plugs doesn't make much sense in 32 bit XP; and; as I
>>>> indicated; Wineyes won't run 64 bit Reaper along with ReaAccess.
>>>> I could have tried NVDA in XP; but it wouldn't have proved much; since
>>>> until I learn how to do it I can't get anything from plug interfaces at
>>>> the numPad with NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe Always on Top; or In Dedicated Process only matters to Jaws, I
>>>> don't know until I install Jaws on 64 bit Windows and try it.
>>>> Sorry,
>>>> Indi
>>>>
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