[RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process

Wed Apr 24 16:20:48 EDT 2013

Hi Indigo, regards to the generic interface, I'm not exactly sure, but by
the very nature of "generic", I don't think it's a road to go down.  If
things are kept as the native plugs window, then consistency will be gained
across DAWs.  For example using an HSC or AHK set in sonar and reaper will
be the same when offset amounts have been calculated or the sets have been
converted, cheers Steve.

Visit:
www.vipaudioaccess.com
for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and  to
basically get involved!
-----Original Message-----
From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
Sent: 24 April 2013 16:21
To: Reapers Without Peepers
Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process

Oh, Steve, I meant to ask if switching to generic interface in Reaper's 
preferences, VST, made any difference to the dedicated plug window.
I myself prefer the plugs native window when trying to find bit map 
icons or buttons.
I was never sure what the generic interface is for, except it saves CPU 
power for underpowered computers.
Indi

On 4/23/2013 12:12 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
> Hi Indi, OK thanks for all the info, but something is definitely going on
> here. I've just switched to NVDA and inserted Massive.  It popped up in a
> dedicated window and I was able to alt tab from that window to Reapers
track
> view, where I could press F to open the FX page.  Granted, the FX page
> didn't stay open, but I was able to alt tab between the bridged plug and
> Reapers track view no problem with NVDA. Now when I say bridged, I mean
this
> is a 64 bit plug in 64 bit Reaper, so really there's no need to bridge it,
> but if it wasn't then it would appear in the FX page natively, regardless
of
> whether a sighted person could see it and it was the sighted view or the
> Reaacces view.  I don't know how they go about it, but for the purposes of
> us vips, this is what happens both ways:
> Bridged (in dedicated process per plugin)= plug will have its own window.
> Native= plug will be visible via the FX page, even though no parameters
may
> be shown to a screenreader, the plug is there, I can see it on screen.
> Problem if done auto=some plugs will be bridged (32 bit plugs in 64 bit
> Reaper), but others won't (32 bit plugs in 32 bit Reaper and 64  bit plugs
> in 64 bit Reaper).
> This = 2 different views of a plugs interface that are different.
>
> Natively, you will only be able to offer an access solution for native
> plugs, 32 bit/32 bit and 64 bit/64 bit.
> In dedicated, you can offer an access solution for both, as they are the
> same because they are in that dedicated window...an HSC set done for a 32
> bit plug will work for the 64 bit version.
>
> Cheers Steve.
> I got all the parameters you mentioned via the method you described.
>
> Visit:
> www.vipaudioaccess.com
> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
to
> basically get involved!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
> Sent: 23 April 2013 15:43
> To: Reapers Without Peepers
> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>
> Hi Steve,
> If you can alt+tab to whatever window, then Jaws is behaving differently
> from NVDA and Window-Eyes in this particular situation.
> I just checked, with two different third party plugs inserted, and when
> in track view I alt+tab and get only the dedicated plug window; can't
> alt+tab again and get the FX Routing view.
> If I hit escape while in the dedicated window I can return to track
> view; then press F to open FX Routing; but there's no way in NVDA or
> Wineyes I can get from the dedicated window directly to FX Routing with
> alt+tab.
>
> There are some really powerful access features in FX Routing View.
> Maybe Try this:
> Insert a synth with a very inaccessible bit map interface, like Tone Two
> RayBlaster, or Massive.
> Go to FX Routing view.
> Tab to Param.
> Right click with the applications key.
> You get a context menu.
> Here's what I get for  RayBlaster, as I arrow down:
> 1. Default Control Mapper SubMenu Unavailable;
> 2. No Recently touched Parameters Unavailable;
> 3.Effects Parameter List SubMenu F;
>
> Okay, now press right arrow on Effects Parameter List SubMenu F ;
> You get Show In Track Controls SubMenu S;
> Press Enter;
>    and you'll get a ton of parameters that you can up/down arrow through.
> Okay, left arrow back to the subMenus.
> Below Show In Track Controls SubMenu S you have:
> Show Track Envelopes SubMenu S;
> Parameter Modulation SubMenu P;
> Learn SubMenu L.
> Learn is Midi Learn, to assign parameters to control surfaces, and
> Parameter Modulation allows any parameter to modulate any other
> parameter, very powerful.
> As to the sighted user being able to view FX Routing view, no, they
> can't  see it, because it's a part of ReaAccess.
> Reaper's standard FX Routing looks very different, a sort of matrix grid
> that Ivan realized blind users could never cope with.
> What I'm saying is that ReaAccess FX Routing is very important, and non
> jaws users also need to be able to get to it and quickly return to the
> dedicated plug windows, for its benefits.
>    Maybe someone else who is not in Jaws can confirm what I'm
> experiencing in NVDA and Wineyes??
>
> I think a solution might be to create a macro that would quickly click
> on the line in FX Routing: Bridged PlugIn... Show UI
>
> In NVDA, a simple press of enter on Show UI doesn't suffice.
> I need to press Move to Focus; then press NumPad Insert+NumPad Enter to
> get the dedicated window to return when I press alt+tab.
> Thanks,
> Indi
>
> On 4/22/2013 6:06 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>> Hi Indi.  That's good you got the dedicated window, but I was a little
>> confused at the explanation of closing it down with the escape key.  You
> can
>> keep the bridged window open and alt tab to Reaper and have whatever
> window
>> you want open in Reaper as well, I just went and tried it.  So, basically
>> you have a bridged window open with normal behaviour in Reaper, whether
> it's
>> in the track view or FX view.
>>
>> To try and explain why this is necessary would mean more typing than I
> feel
>> like doing <grin, but the key issue is focus focus focus!  Meaning, for
> HSC
>> for example to have this full window to work with, it needs to be
>> dedicated...similar to the way sonar handles it.  In sonar we can control
>> tab to and from an open plugs properties and the track view etc.  In
> Reaper
>> we want the same behaviour, then HSC can do its stuff, automatically
> switch
>> sets etc.
>>
>> Now imagine the FX window in Reaper.  To us it's called the FX window and
>> that's what our screenreaders are focused on, but to a sighted person,
> they
>> can manipulate that window to see plugs parameters, activate them and do
>> whatever they want.  I'm guessing they could drag them and resize them, I
>> don't know, but I bet they can.  Anyway, to my point.  It would be easy
>> enough to create hotspots that click on those controls in that window,
but
>> it would not be possible to have other code managing what those spots
were
>> clicking on.  So, creating a hotspot at 100X100, may activate a button,
>> which is what we want, but the next time we open Reaper or perhaps insert
>> another plug, it could easily move that window and the location of that
>> button...so when we activate that hotspot we did, it will not be clicking
> on
>> where we first defined it...and that could cause big problems.
>>
>> Now even if that wasn't the case, the chances of the said hotspot working
> on
>> multiple machines that could have slightly different configurations is
> very
>> small.  We need a consistent environment in order to have access
solutions
>> work on other machines, it maybe fine for personal use, but problems will
>> arise.
>>
>> I was chatting with Gianluca the other night and he was actually using
>> Reaper 3...and I forget what result he got with Reaper 4.X, but I'm sure
> his
>> AHK scripts are excellent, but what I'm not sure about is how many
> machines
>> they're being used on.  We all have to work together to hit the right
spot
>> so to speak, so thanks again for your input, cheers Steve.
>>
>> Visit:
>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
> to
>> basically get involved!
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>> Sent: 22 April 2013 22:31
>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>> Here's my experience with a third party plug, RayBlaster, 64; a
>> definitely nice demo, which I installed and checked out with NVDA, in
>> Windows 7 64 bits.
>> In the FX Routing view; with In Dedicated Process plus Always on top; I
>> definitely could; by doing NVDA's equivalent of routing to PC cursor, or
>> whatever it is called in Jaws that gets focus onto the number pad; I
>> left clicked on the line: Tone Two RayBlaster Demo Bridged, May Be in
>> Top Level Window, Click on UI.
>> Then I could alt+tab between the track view and that bridged window
>> containing  RayBlaster.
>> If this is required to give you the dedicated window you need to create
>> HSC or AHK scripts, then that's the solution.
>> That dedicated window was lost each time; as soon as I hit escape to go
>> back to track view, because you can't arm a track, you can't start
>> record, or anything else to do with Reaper tracks while in FX Routing,
>> so far as I can tell; those can only be done from track view.
>>
>> Also, with the dedicated window open; you can't get at any of the usual
>> buttons available in FX Routing, like Add, to add an effect plug, or
>> Param; to get at the plug's parameters, like if you want to assign them
>> to a control surface with midi learn.
>> You only need to hit escape to dismiss the dedicated window and go back
>> to track view, then hit F to return to a normal FX Routing view, with
>> Add, Param, etcetera, so you can easily have both the dedicated window
>> and the usual FX Routing view.
>> Each time, After returning to FX routing I needed to again left click on
>> that line about bridged plug may be in top level window, click on UI; to
>> get the dedicated window to return when I alt+tab.
>> I think Genluca Apollo and his friends in Italy created Reaper Auto Hot
>> Key scripts for NI Kontakt without doing this, though, so maybe there's
>> another method?
>> Indi
>>
>> .
>>     or
>>
>> On 4/22/2013 12:25 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>> Hi Indi and thanks for your efforts.  you're definitely missing
something
>>> there, as the whole reason for in dedicated process per plugin is to
> allow
>>> the plug to have its own window.  When you've inserted the plug, in the
> FX
>>> window you can tab over to "UI", and double left click it with the
numpad
>>> cursor, then the plug should open in that dedicated window.
>>>
>>> You said there's no reason to bridge a 32 plug in a 32 bit DAW, well I
>> agree
>>> with you from a sighted point of view, but we need a window where HSC or
>> AHK
>>> can focus on...without that, the plugs window is only about  2 thirds of
>> the
>>> FX window and  most importantly, not in focus for a screenreader...it's
>> the
>>> FX window that's in focus.  Making those changes brings focus to the
plug
>>> and not to the FX window with the plug in the background to us...but
>>> remember, it's not in the background for a sighted dood, it's visible on
>>> screen.  Cheers Steve.
>>>
>>> Visit:
>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
>> to
>>> basically get involved!
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>> Sent: 22 April 2013 13:57
>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>> Subject: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>>
>>> Hi Steve,
>>> In my XP 32 bit daw; running Window-eyes 6.1; I tried to get what you
>>> are finding in Windows 7 64 bit and Jaws, but just couldn't.
>>> I selected Always on Top in the view menu of Reaper 4.32; also selected
>>> In Dedicated Process in the Preferences Compatibility settings, but I
>>> couldn't get either Massive or Absynth 5's interface to show up when I
>>> tabbed.
>>> I did get the words Bridged PlugIn May be in Top Level Window, or words
>>> to that effect; to show up in Absynth's native interface, at Wineyes
>>> numPad; but  otherwise Absynth's interface looked the same.
>>> When I pressed tab I just heard Window-Eyes version 6.1, same as always.
>>> Also, I didn't get either Massive or Absynth's parameters or value edit
>>> boxes to show up at the arrow keys, as is the case with the bundled
>>> Reaper plugs.
>>> Just to learn what would happen, I tried other choices in Compatibility,
>>> In Separate Process; also In Native Interface, Not Bridged, and results
>>> were the same.
>>> I got no advantage from tabbing,and in the choice In Dedicated Process I
>>> at first couldn't access Massive or Absynth's s usual interface; at
>>> Wineyes numPad;  but pressed escape and then F to return to FX Routing;
>>> and eventually got the usual Massive or Absynth interface,which is
>>> practically empty anyway, since it's all bit map imagery.
>>> I returned to the default Compatibility setting, which is I think
>>> Auto-select; but kept Always on top, which didn't seem to either hurt or
>>> help anything.
>>>
>>> I don't think I'm going to be of any assistance to your efforts, since
>>> bridging 32 bit plugs doesn't make much sense in 32 bit XP; and; as I
>>> indicated; Wineyes won't run 64 bit Reaper along with ReaAccess.
>>> I could have tried NVDA in XP; but it wouldn't have proved much; since
>>> until I learn how to do it I can't get anything from plug interfaces at
>>> the numPad with NVDA.
>>>
>>> Maybe Always on Top; or In Dedicated Process only matters to Jaws, I
>>> don't know until I install Jaws on 64 bit Windows and try it.
>>> Sorry,
>>> Indi
>>>
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