[RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process

Wed Apr 24 11:20:43 EDT 2013

Oh, Steve, I meant to ask if switching to generic interface in Reaper's 
preferences, VST, made any difference to the dedicated plug window.
I myself prefer the plugs native window when trying to find bit map 
icons or buttons.
I was never sure what the generic interface is for, except it saves CPU 
power for underpowered computers.
Indi

On 4/23/2013 12:12 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
> Hi Indi, OK thanks for all the info, but something is definitely going on
> here. I've just switched to NVDA and inserted Massive.  It popped up in a
> dedicated window and I was able to alt tab from that window to Reapers track
> view, where I could press F to open the FX page.  Granted, the FX page
> didn't stay open, but I was able to alt tab between the bridged plug and
> Reapers track view no problem with NVDA. Now when I say bridged, I mean this
> is a 64 bit plug in 64 bit Reaper, so really there's no need to bridge it,
> but if it wasn't then it would appear in the FX page natively, regardless of
> whether a sighted person could see it and it was the sighted view or the
> Reaacces view.  I don't know how they go about it, but for the purposes of
> us vips, this is what happens both ways:
> Bridged (in dedicated process per plugin)= plug will have its own window.
> Native= plug will be visible via the FX page, even though no parameters may
> be shown to a screenreader, the plug is there, I can see it on screen.
> Problem if done auto=some plugs will be bridged (32 bit plugs in 64 bit
> Reaper), but others won't (32 bit plugs in 32 bit Reaper and 64  bit plugs
> in 64 bit Reaper).
> This = 2 different views of a plugs interface that are different.
>
> Natively, you will only be able to offer an access solution for native
> plugs, 32 bit/32 bit and 64 bit/64 bit.
> In dedicated, you can offer an access solution for both, as they are the
> same because they are in that dedicated window...an HSC set done for a 32
> bit plug will work for the 64 bit version.
>
> Cheers Steve.
> I got all the parameters you mentioned via the method you described.
>
> Visit:
> www.vipaudioaccess.com
> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and  to
> basically get involved!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
> Sent: 23 April 2013 15:43
> To: Reapers Without Peepers
> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>
> Hi Steve,
> If you can alt+tab to whatever window, then Jaws is behaving differently
> from NVDA and Window-Eyes in this particular situation.
> I just checked, with two different third party plugs inserted, and when
> in track view I alt+tab and get only the dedicated plug window; can't
> alt+tab again and get the FX Routing view.
> If I hit escape while in the dedicated window I can return to track
> view; then press F to open FX Routing; but there's no way in NVDA or
> Wineyes I can get from the dedicated window directly to FX Routing with
> alt+tab.
>
> There are some really powerful access features in FX Routing View.
> Maybe Try this:
> Insert a synth with a very inaccessible bit map interface, like Tone Two
> RayBlaster, or Massive.
> Go to FX Routing view.
> Tab to Param.
> Right click with the applications key.
> You get a context menu.
> Here's what I get for  RayBlaster, as I arrow down:
> 1. Default Control Mapper SubMenu Unavailable;
> 2. No Recently touched Parameters Unavailable;
> 3.Effects Parameter List SubMenu F;
>
> Okay, now press right arrow on Effects Parameter List SubMenu F ;
> You get Show In Track Controls SubMenu S;
> Press Enter;
>    and you'll get a ton of parameters that you can up/down arrow through.
> Okay, left arrow back to the subMenus.
> Below Show In Track Controls SubMenu S you have:
> Show Track Envelopes SubMenu S;
> Parameter Modulation SubMenu P;
> Learn SubMenu L.
> Learn is Midi Learn, to assign parameters to control surfaces, and
> Parameter Modulation allows any parameter to modulate any other
> parameter, very powerful.
> As to the sighted user being able to view FX Routing view, no, they
> can't  see it, because it's a part of ReaAccess.
> Reaper's standard FX Routing looks very different, a sort of matrix grid
> that Ivan realized blind users could never cope with.
> What I'm saying is that ReaAccess FX Routing is very important, and non
> jaws users also need to be able to get to it and quickly return to the
> dedicated plug windows, for its benefits.
>    Maybe someone else who is not in Jaws can confirm what I'm
> experiencing in NVDA and Wineyes??
>
> I think a solution might be to create a macro that would quickly click
> on the line in FX Routing: Bridged PlugIn... Show UI
>
> In NVDA, a simple press of enter on Show UI doesn't suffice.
> I need to press Move to Focus; then press NumPad Insert+NumPad Enter to
> get the dedicated window to return when I press alt+tab.
> Thanks,
> Indi
>
> On 4/22/2013 6:06 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>> Hi Indi.  That's good you got the dedicated window, but I was a little
>> confused at the explanation of closing it down with the escape key.  You
> can
>> keep the bridged window open and alt tab to Reaper and have whatever
> window
>> you want open in Reaper as well, I just went and tried it.  So, basically
>> you have a bridged window open with normal behaviour in Reaper, whether
> it's
>> in the track view or FX view.
>>
>> To try and explain why this is necessary would mean more typing than I
> feel
>> like doing <grin, but the key issue is focus focus focus!  Meaning, for
> HSC
>> for example to have this full window to work with, it needs to be
>> dedicated...similar to the way sonar handles it.  In sonar we can control
>> tab to and from an open plugs properties and the track view etc.  In
> Reaper
>> we want the same behaviour, then HSC can do its stuff, automatically
> switch
>> sets etc.
>>
>> Now imagine the FX window in Reaper.  To us it's called the FX window and
>> that's what our screenreaders are focused on, but to a sighted person,
> they
>> can manipulate that window to see plugs parameters, activate them and do
>> whatever they want.  I'm guessing they could drag them and resize them, I
>> don't know, but I bet they can.  Anyway, to my point.  It would be easy
>> enough to create hotspots that click on those controls in that window, but
>> it would not be possible to have other code managing what those spots were
>> clicking on.  So, creating a hotspot at 100X100, may activate a button,
>> which is what we want, but the next time we open Reaper or perhaps insert
>> another plug, it could easily move that window and the location of that
>> button...so when we activate that hotspot we did, it will not be clicking
> on
>> where we first defined it...and that could cause big problems.
>>
>> Now even if that wasn't the case, the chances of the said hotspot working
> on
>> multiple machines that could have slightly different configurations is
> very
>> small.  We need a consistent environment in order to have access solutions
>> work on other machines, it maybe fine for personal use, but problems will
>> arise.
>>
>> I was chatting with Gianluca the other night and he was actually using
>> Reaper 3...and I forget what result he got with Reaper 4.X, but I'm sure
> his
>> AHK scripts are excellent, but what I'm not sure about is how many
> machines
>> they're being used on.  We all have to work together to hit the right spot
>> so to speak, so thanks again for your input, cheers Steve.
>>
>> Visit:
>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
> to
>> basically get involved!
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>> Sent: 22 April 2013 22:31
>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>> Here's my experience with a third party plug, RayBlaster, 64; a
>> definitely nice demo, which I installed and checked out with NVDA, in
>> Windows 7 64 bits.
>> In the FX Routing view; with In Dedicated Process plus Always on top; I
>> definitely could; by doing NVDA's equivalent of routing to PC cursor, or
>> whatever it is called in Jaws that gets focus onto the number pad; I
>> left clicked on the line: Tone Two RayBlaster Demo Bridged, May Be in
>> Top Level Window, Click on UI.
>> Then I could alt+tab between the track view and that bridged window
>> containing  RayBlaster.
>> If this is required to give you the dedicated window you need to create
>> HSC or AHK scripts, then that's the solution.
>> That dedicated window was lost each time; as soon as I hit escape to go
>> back to track view, because you can't arm a track, you can't start
>> record, or anything else to do with Reaper tracks while in FX Routing,
>> so far as I can tell; those can only be done from track view.
>>
>> Also, with the dedicated window open; you can't get at any of the usual
>> buttons available in FX Routing, like Add, to add an effect plug, or
>> Param; to get at the plug's parameters, like if you want to assign them
>> to a control surface with midi learn.
>> You only need to hit escape to dismiss the dedicated window and go back
>> to track view, then hit F to return to a normal FX Routing view, with
>> Add, Param, etcetera, so you can easily have both the dedicated window
>> and the usual FX Routing view.
>> Each time, After returning to FX routing I needed to again left click on
>> that line about bridged plug may be in top level window, click on UI; to
>> get the dedicated window to return when I alt+tab.
>> I think Genluca Apollo and his friends in Italy created Reaper Auto Hot
>> Key scripts for NI Kontakt without doing this, though, so maybe there's
>> another method?
>> Indi
>>
>> .
>>     or
>>
>> On 4/22/2013 12:25 PM, Steve Spamer wrote:
>>> Hi Indi and thanks for your efforts.  you're definitely missing something
>>> there, as the whole reason for in dedicated process per plugin is to
> allow
>>> the plug to have its own window.  When you've inserted the plug, in the
> FX
>>> window you can tab over to "UI", and double left click it with the numpad
>>> cursor, then the plug should open in that dedicated window.
>>>
>>> You said there's no reason to bridge a 32 plug in a 32 bit DAW, well I
>> agree
>>> with you from a sighted point of view, but we need a window where HSC or
>> AHK
>>> can focus on...without that, the plugs window is only about  2 thirds of
>> the
>>> FX window and  most importantly, not in focus for a screenreader...it's
>> the
>>> FX window that's in focus.  Making those changes brings focus to the plug
>>> and not to the FX window with the plug in the background to us...but
>>> remember, it's not in the background for a sighted dood, it's visible on
>>> screen.  Cheers Steve.
>>>
>>> Visit:
>>> www.vipaudioaccess.com
>>> for audio access solutions, articles, demos, to showcase your music and
>> to
>>> basically get involved!
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RWP [mailto:rwp-bounces at reaaccess.com] On Behalf Of Indigo
>>> Sent: 22 April 2013 13:57
>>> To: Reapers Without Peepers
>>> Subject: [RWP] For Steve: Always On Top and Run In Dedicated Process
>>>
>>> Hi Steve,
>>> In my XP 32 bit daw; running Window-eyes 6.1; I tried to get what you
>>> are finding in Windows 7 64 bit and Jaws, but just couldn't.
>>> I selected Always on Top in the view menu of Reaper 4.32; also selected
>>> In Dedicated Process in the Preferences Compatibility settings, but I
>>> couldn't get either Massive or Absynth 5's interface to show up when I
>>> tabbed.
>>> I did get the words Bridged PlugIn May be in Top Level Window, or words
>>> to that effect; to show up in Absynth's native interface, at Wineyes
>>> numPad; but  otherwise Absynth's interface looked the same.
>>> When I pressed tab I just heard Window-Eyes version 6.1, same as always.
>>> Also, I didn't get either Massive or Absynth's parameters or value edit
>>> boxes to show up at the arrow keys, as is the case with the bundled
>>> Reaper plugs.
>>> Just to learn what would happen, I tried other choices in Compatibility,
>>> In Separate Process; also In Native Interface, Not Bridged, and results
>>> were the same.
>>> I got no advantage from tabbing,and in the choice In Dedicated Process I
>>> at first couldn't access Massive or Absynth's s usual interface; at
>>> Wineyes numPad;  but pressed escape and then F to return to FX Routing;
>>> and eventually got the usual Massive or Absynth interface,which is
>>> practically empty anyway, since it's all bit map imagery.
>>> I returned to the default Compatibility setting, which is I think
>>> Auto-select; but kept Always on top, which didn't seem to either hurt or
>>> help anything.
>>>
>>> I don't think I'm going to be of any assistance to your efforts, since
>>> bridging 32 bit plugs doesn't make much sense in 32 bit XP; and; as I
>>> indicated; Wineyes won't run 64 bit Reaper along with ReaAccess.
>>> I could have tried NVDA in XP; but it wouldn't have proved much; since
>>> until I learn how to do it I can't get anything from plug interfaces at
>>> the numPad with NVDA.
>>>
>>> Maybe Always on Top; or In Dedicated Process only matters to Jaws, I
>>> don't know until I install Jaws on 64 bit Windows and try it.
>>> Sorry,
>>> Indi
>>>
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>>
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