[RWP] midi controller

Jim Snowbarger Snowman at SnowmanRadio.com
Thu Aug 18 22:46:23 EDT 2011 

holy moley maow,
That's a bunch of options, ain't it?  Can you imagine if car dashboards had 
knobs where you could set the oil pressure, vary the coolant flow rate, 
tweak the ccelerater gain, adjust the start point for the brakes, the engine 
idle spead and maximum rpm, the fuel/oxygen mixture ratio, etc etc etc?  Who 
the hell could drive one.

Thanks for digging that up.  It should, if you knew what you were doing, 
make it possible to pump up your audio performance, which mostly means the 
number of simultaneous tracks you could deal with.

Of course, it seems to me that simple midi should not be involved with any 
of this stuff.  VST synths will be affected by audio thread behavior.  But, 
the case I'm dealing with is an external keyboard, and an external 
synthesizer module.  The load on the cpu for handling that kind of midi is 
infinitescimal, extremely small.  So small, that an old IBM xt running at 4 
megahertz could do it seamlessly.  How far have we come.
There is absolutely no need for any buffering on simple midi events.  Reaper 
does have a challenge, as Derek alluded to, of getting midi events to 
synchronize with audio playback.  But, I would not expect that to be done in 
a way that massively delayed the  input monitoring.  That should be 
virtually instantaneous, and we should not have to tweak indefinitely to 
achieve it.

Again, I am running reaper 3.77, because I could not find the midi input 
controls in 4. .  Did this improve any in 4?

To work with this in it's current form, you have to be constantly switching 
your sound module between a direct connection to the keyboard when your 
recording , and over to reaper when you are playing back.
 It's really not workable.  But, I'll keep poking around too, and post here 
if I find out what, if anything affects it.
Again, thanks heaps for the help.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Indigo" <33indigo at charter.net>
To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller


> Jim, I got my midi recording latency down somewhat, though it's still more 
> than I would like.
> I compared Reaper's latency to Sonar 8.5.3 and Sonar's latency in my 
> system is about half of Reaper's right now, but there are oodles of Reaper 
> settings I haven't tweaked yet.
> For reducing latency in general and optimizing my C P U useage, I need to 
> go around and shut down indexing, print spooler, all wireless and 
> networking services, ethernet output, anything that I don't need to run an 
> offline music only computer.
> Also, in a forum I saw advice to click on the asio control panel and 
> optimize the settings there.
> I don't think I've found the asio control panel from Reaper yet.
> Next session I'll try right clicking the asio driver where it's shown, and 
> try going to the number pad and fishing around there.
> If your midi interface has an accessible control panel, maybe you can down 
> size the buffer in there.
> I need sighted help with my E-Mu PatchMix control panel, maybe tomorrow 
> for that project.
>
> According to what I read in to cockos forums, 128 samples should be plenty 
> for the buffer.
> Here is a quote from Reaper Wiki on optimizing audio buffer settings, some 
> of which are said to affect midi latency as well.
> quote:
> Preferences Audio Buffering
> Audio Buffering Settings
> Auto-detect the number of needed audio processing threads
> This will scan your registry and find out how many C P U's you have, and 
> will tune
> the number of threads accordingly.
> Audio reading/processing threads
> Enter a value into this field to manually set the number of threads that 
> are used
> to process Audio. The recommended setting is 1 thread per CPU. You can 
> also set to
> 0 to force all audio processing to happen in the audio thread.
> Thread Priority
> Click on the down arrow to select a Thread Priority setting from the list. 
> Raising
> the Thread Priority will force the audio threads to be processed before 
> other threads
> (e.g. graphics).
> Thread Priority.png
> Thread Behavior
> Click on the down arrow to select a Thread Behavior setting from the list. 
> Raising
> the Thread Behavior will make the processing threads try more aggressively 
> to keep
> various buffers full (at the expense of added CPU use).
> Reaper 0b6 preferences thread behaviour.png
> Source material buffer size
> Enter a value into this field to set the buffer size for reading track 
> media items.
> The default is 600ms. If you lower this, you may use less RAM and CPU, but 
> you may
> experience underruns. If the transport flashes red and you hear audio drop 
> out, then
> raise this setting.
> Wait until buffers are (xxx) percent full to start playback
> Enter a value into this field to set the amount of audio that is buffered 
> before
> playback begins. It is recommended to leave this at 100%, but if you have 
> a very
> fast system and wish for playback to start more quickly, you can lower 
> this.
> FX render-ahead
> FX render-ahead (enables SMP support)
> This option, enabled by default, allows FX to be rendered before they are 
> needed
> by the audio device. This enables better performance with certain plug-ins 
> on single
> processor systems, and allows better utilization of multiple processors on 
> SMP systems.
> Because FX may be running in multiple threads and/or processors at the 
> same time,
> this option may cause occasional problems with some (incompatible) FX.
> render ahead size
> When using the FX render-ahead mode, this option sets how far ahead REAPER 
> will render.
> A setting of about 50ms or greater is recommended, the default being 
> 200ms.
> render ahead on non-fx tracks
> If this option is enabled, all tracks are rendered ahead as if they had FX 
> on them,
> applying envelopes and routing, etc. This can use more CPU, but may 
> slightly improve
> overall playback performance.
> Optimize track buffering for low latency hardware
> This option, which is enabled by default, makes media/disk reads happen 
> asynchronously,
> such that the audio playback never waits on the disk (which causes noises 
> to happen
> on certain hardware, i.e. RME interfaces). This only affects the action on 
> certain
> underrun conditions, and it's probably best left on.
> Advanced I/O
> Disk reads (used when playing/etc)
> These options do nifty things to Reaper's Audio Playback behaviour.
> Preferred Disk Read Mode: This pull down menu contains the following three 
> options:
> Discread.jpg
> Asynchronous unbuffered (Default):
> Asynchronous buffered:
> Synchronous:
> Disk Writes (used when recording)
> These advanced preferences are used to determine Reaper's write to disk 
> behaviour.
> Careful tweaking of these settings can dramatically enhance performance.
> Preferred Disk Write Mode: This pull down menu contains the following 
> three options:
> Discwrites.jpg
> Asynchronous (Default):
> Asynchronous (write through):
>  Although it would likely make the system less tolerant of hardware 
> errors, Asynchronous
> (write through) shortens the path that data takes to get to the disk, 
> making it less
> likely for another process to interrupt and prevent the data from being 
> written.
> Synchronous:
> room for more info
>
> On 8/17/2011 11:01 PM, Jim Snowbarger wrote:
>> Yes, I think it is lined up pretty well on playback.
>> It's just the monitoring that is almost useless.
>>
>> I dropped back to 3.77 for now.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Lane" <derek at pdaudio.net>
>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller
>>
>>
>>> exactly why I haven't bothered switching.
>>> if you don't moniter the midi itself, just that which comes from your
>>> keyboard, does everything line up on playback?
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Snowbarger"
>>> <Snowman at SnowmanRadio.com>
>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller
>>>
>>>
>>>> It is much larger than the audio delay.
>>>> I would estimate the audio delay here at about 50ms, without having
>>>> played with any buffering or latency settings.
>>>> This should not require any buffering. It is just a one byte midi
>>>> note on message, going form my keyboard, though midi, to the PC, then
>>>> being echoed back out a midi port to an external sound module.
>>>> This shouldn't have anything to do with buffering audio, unless
>>>> somebody is tryint to play some games like you maybe suggest in
>>>> lining the midi delays up with audio. But, if you play the keyboard
>>>> this way, and listen to the sound module lagging behind you like
>>>> that, it really messes you up. <grin>
>>>>
>>>> Now that I've switched to reaper 4, I can no longer get the correct
>>>> context menues to appear, probaby connected with the invalid track
>>>> handle problem.
>>>> Ah yes, the bleeding edge of technology.
>>>> Do you feel yourself bleeding?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Lane" <derek at pdaudio.net>
>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 10:56 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> is this delay equal to or greater than the delay you get when you
>>>>> moniter audio?
>>>>> Just curious if, reaper in its infinent wisdum is trying to keep
>>>>> everything in sync.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Snowbarger"
>>>>> <Snowman at SnowmanRadio.com>
>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This was a very helpful post, and lead to a major step forward for 
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> I now can record and playback midi. The trick, for me, was the
>>>>>> options, preferences dialog, midi devices. Oddly, this midi devices
>>>>>> item was hidden when the audio tree node was collapsed. Would you
>>>>>> look under audio for midi stuff? Unless you expand audio, you won't
>>>>>> see that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, there it was. And, in the tab list for Midi devices, you
>>>>>> don't get any clues that there is one panel for input, and a
>>>>>> separate panel for output.
>>>>>> Indigo's suggestion to mouse around for it is the only way to get
>>>>>> there. Anbd, once you set focus on the section you want, using the
>>>>>> mouse cursor, JAWS, at least, will lie to you about whetehr a
>>>>>> device is enabled or disabled. Reviewing with the mouse cursor
>>>>>> seems to tell the truth.
>>>>>> Double clicking on the item lets you tab to a checkbox that will
>>>>>> enable it.
>>>>>> Once I got both input and output enabled, I could arm recording
>>>>>> with monitoring, and could hear midi coming out the back side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, here's the weird thing. There is about 200 milliceconds of
>>>>>> latency. Once I strike the note on the keyboard, I can wait at
>>>>>> least 200ms for the note to come out the back end and hit my sound
>>>>>> module
>>>>>> It is a very, very noticeable, intolerable, even annoying, delay.
>>>>>> What the heck is that all about.
>>>>>> Buffering? for midi? come now.
>>>>>> Maybe I need a faster computer <big grin>
>>>>>> Or, perish the thought, do you suppose I need to use shorter midi
>>>>>> cables?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anybody have any ideas what causes the delay?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Indigo" <33indigo at charter.net>
>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 3:56 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>>>>> I realize it's only beginner's luck how easily I got Reaper Midi
>>>>>>> Devices enabled, but here's how I do it:
>>>>>>> This is in Winize, you'll have to translate to Jaws equivalents,
>>>>>>> okay.
>>>>>>> I'll refer to the arrow keys below the 8 pack as T cluster arrows,
>>>>>>> and otherwise just say arrow when I'm at the number pad.
>>>>>>> In options/preferences,
>>>>>>> If I go over to the number pad and arrow down line by line from
>>>>>>> the top of the screen, I find the topics as follows: General,
>>>>>>> Paths, keyboard, project, defaults, audio, device, midi devices.
>>>>>>> At the number pad,I left click on the topic midi devices.
>>>>>>> Then, tab down to Midi input devices to make available.
>>>>>>> For me that tab always says no selected item, even when I have
>>>>>>> devices enabled.
>>>>>>> Then, when I arrow down with the T cluster arrows I immediately
>>>>>>> find a list of my midi input devices
>>>>>>> with their name, the number of the midi port, and their mode,
>>>>>>> either enabled or disabled.
>>>>>>> The procedure, to enable these devices is coming in a second.
>>>>>>> Meanwhile, if I continue to tab down I next find add joystick
>>>>>>> midi, then another tab down and I find midi outputs to make
>>>>>>> available, which, for me will also say no sselected item.
>>>>>>> Okay, enabling either midi input or output devices is exactly the
>>>>>>> same procedure.
>>>>>>> In winize, with my midi devices's name speaking at the T cluster
>>>>>>> arrow keys, I route mouse pointer to list view, jaws has a similar
>>>>>>> move to get that midi input devices list focus over to the number
>>>>>>> pad.
>>>>>>> At the number pad I arrow up or down and make sure I'm on the name
>>>>>>> of my midi device, then right click at the number pad.
>>>>>>> I get a context menu, I arrow down with the T cluster arrows to
>>>>>>> configure inputs C and hit enter.At the tab key I get enable input
>>>>>>> with a check box, and at the next tab down I get enable input for
>>>>>>> control messages, also with a check box.
>>>>>>> Put a check in both of these boxes with the space bar, tab down to
>>>>>>> okay and hit enter, and you've enabled your midi input device.
>>>>>>> Do the same for your other midi input devices, and the same for
>>>>>>> midi output devices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There might be an easier way, but I know this works, I record midi
>>>>>>> with no problems, control soft synth parameters from my control
>>>>>>> surface, etcetera.
>>>>>>> I only wish I had half as much luck with Sonar 8.5.3.
>>>>>>> Indigo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/11/2011 10:14 PM, Jim Snowbarger wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have an old Mark of the unicorn Fast lane midi output device.
>>>>>>>> It works
>>>>>>>> great with sonar.
>>>>>>>> Actually, I have never managed to make midi work at all with 
>>>>>>>> reaper.
>>>>>>>> Congratulations to those of you who have.
>>>>>>>> Following the options preferences path, I have both channels on
>>>>>>>> the midi
>>>>>>>> device enabled.
>>>>>>>> So, I create a track.
>>>>>>>> Focused on the track, I presss tab, and get to record mode. Up
>>>>>>>> and down
>>>>>>>> arrow reveal, among other things midi replace, midi overdub, midi
>>>>>>>> output. Not sure what midi output does. But, one of the others 
>>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>> applicable. So, I choose midi replace.
>>>>>>>> Continuing to tab across, I see midi output set to fast lane port 
>>>>>>>> A,
>>>>>>>> which seems correct.
>>>>>>>> But, escaping back to the track, then shift+context key, and
>>>>>>>> arrowing up
>>>>>>>> to Midi output, reveals none, or another midi output device that
>>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>> want to use. Fast lane is not in the list. Not sure why.
>>>>>>>> And, if I arm the track, with monitor enabled, it is in audio
>>>>>>>> mode, not
>>>>>>>> midi.
>>>>>>>> Is this interface an inscrutible, nonintuitive pain in the ass or
>>>>>>>> what.
>>>>>>>> Help desperately needed.
>>>>>>>> Suggestions welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Indigo" <33indigo at charter.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Reapers Without Peepers" <rwp at reaaccess.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:53 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RWP] midi controller
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I go to options/preferences/midi devices/ either input or output.
>>>>>>>>> I tab down a little to output device, or whatever it's called,
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> always seems to say not selected until I arrow down and get the
>>>>>>>>> device
>>>>>>>>> to be spoken, then go through the usual enabling procedure.
>>>>>>>>> In Winize the enabling procedure is a bit complex.
>>>>>>>>> I find the device at the number pad, right click it, tab down to
>>>>>>>>> configure, hit enter, then arrow down to enable, then I think
>>>>>>>>> it's the
>>>>>>>>> usual apply and okay buttons to hit enter on.
>>>>>>>>> I'm just taking this off the top of my head, without having
>>>>>>>>> Reaper on
>>>>>>>>> this computer to look at, but that's the general idea of the
>>>>>>>>> procedure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2011 9:51 PM, Kevin Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> OK,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I solved the folder problem I was having with reaper,...Now, I
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> like to know where I need to go to select the midi controller
>>>>>>>>>> so I can
>>>>>>>>>> record some midi tracks?...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the previous version of reaper there was a dropdown menu
>>>>>>>>>> that would
>>>>>>>>>> let you select the "midi out controller", such as my "Motif
>>>>>>>>>> Sx", but it
>>>>>>>>>> seems that option is no longer availible?...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have all of the "midi ins", and "midi outs" enabled in
>>>>>>>>>> preferences,...So just how do I go about selecting my motif as
>>>>>>>>>> the midi
>>>>>>>>>> controller so I can record midi??...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> RWP mailing list
>>>>>>>>> RWP at reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>> http://reaaccess.com/mailman/listinfo/rwp_reaaccess.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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