<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">i would but i don't see the attachments anymore. <div><br><div><div>On Aug 4, 2011, at 8:54 PM, Alex H. wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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can't you get the samples forom the list they're attached to ethe
other emaisl<br>
<br>
On 8/4/2011 8:43 PM, Brandon Misch wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:3E5FB93A-95B0-4881-91E0-A4E4FD63D7B7@gmail.com" type="cite">
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is there a way i can hear the samples?
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:28 PM, Alex H. wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<title></title>
<div> My idea is to just do a last bit of tweakage on the
voices as far as formant parameters go, then do a initial
release. It need not sound like a particular version, just
loads better than that Hlsyn stuff from before The current
version sounds like maybe a 4.5 or 4.6x version, and that
is totally fine to me. It's DECTalk and it's sounding
unique, crisp and clear. As Raymond pointed out, there's a
bit of word running together, such as "test of" but othr
than that, things are looking up for DECTalk. Any
thoughts?<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 8/4/2011 1:31 PM, ebruckert Bruckert wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:CAMECcJ2jpe7s8n_wuja3OhtQv1+bTYdi2wd65HmxDN0kCtPtgA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div>Here is my plan we need to now enter a release
cycle where Corine and I now carefully to the voices
on the new synthesizer bass and come out the first
release. I'm unwilling to try to make an exact match
before we do a first release. There are many reasons
for this and the real issue is this is the way to
really start. After the initial release then we worry
about other details where we have to look
for consensus on what people would like a like. Also
in many areas the rules are highly interactive so a
change may fix the exact problem you're trying to fix,
but have unintended side effects. Also there's issues
like shutter priority be to provide a way to better
control the synthesizer by getting around blocked
commands by the screen reader application. I will
update the file system and get started with corine
hopefully tomorrow. Today I'm sick as a dog so I don't
want to do anything when I can barely think. And I am
willing to continue for free to try and please the
users as long as there is interest.</div>
<div>For myself I can say I've listened to DECtalk so
much, that I'm quite happy with the version we have
right now.<br>
</div>
<div>As a point of interest what I think I have learned
so far is that the single biggest issue was spectral
tilt, when we incorporated change made by Dennis which
from a speech standpoint is more correct meaning more
natural in a spectral range. But from the overwhelming
reaction we have anecdotal proof that this spectral
shape is better for users. This is actually not
terribly surprising because on the other side of the
coin we lack the higher formants because for compute
and other reasons it was impossible to add these to
the synthesizer. At this point theoretically we could
add them in but it's is fairly large effort because
we'd have to go from integer arithmetic to floating
point for the vocal track as were presently at the
limit of what we can do with 16-bit integers. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:46 AM, FRIDO ORDEMANN <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:enablerehab@verizon.net">enablerehab@verizon.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>i can't tell the difference when listening
as Ed suggests - excellent!</div>
<div>thanks, Ed</div>
<div><br>
<div> <b><span>From:</span></b> Alex H. <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:linuxx64.bashsh@gmail.com">linuxx64.bashsh@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dectalk@bluegrasspals.com">dectalk@bluegrasspals.com</a><br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Wed, August 3,
2011 4:34:48 PM
<div><br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b> Re: [DECtalk]
Some DECtalk history and what I think we
can and can't reasonably do<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
Agreed. This new sample rules. It's
pretty darn close to the original and
has its own coolness..<br>
<br>
alex<br>
<br>
On 8/3/2011 4:09 PM, jake mcmahan wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">On 8/3/2011 3:42
PM, ebruckert Bruckert wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Okay as an
update listen to the to wave files
separately not back-and-forth listen
to one we waited a few minutes
listen to the other. See if you
agree were getting closer, one of
course is what you sent me<br>
<br>
<div>On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:43 PM,
ebruckert Bruckert <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:edbruckert@gmail.com">edbruckert@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>agreed
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at
1:38 PM, Alex H. <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:linuxx64.bashsh@gmail.com">linuxx64.bashsh@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div>I, too, hope that
HLsyn eventually will
be a viable option and
we could use the old
method or HLsyn if we
wanted, maybe for
reading long texts and
so on. It's a great
idea and theory but
just isn't mature
enough at this point.<br>
<br>
Alex
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/3/2011 1:13
PM, ebruckert
Bruckert wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">There's
always two sides
to a coin, if
DECtalk hadn't
been purchased
it would have
died. And since
there was no
money from
anyone to work
on handicapped
applications, we
had to do what
our customers
want it or go
home. I
recognize that
the HLsyn work
did not yield
the hoped-for
results and
perhaps someday
it can with what
we learned in
our failures.
But it was a
decision based
on the best
knowledge we had
at the time and
in fact also
with Dennis
Klatt's work.
The problems
that occurred
with the HL sin
version aren't
of any interest
to me because
the version put
out was in early
one and it's not
the right time
to pursue trying
to perfect
HLsyn. S<br>
<div>On all I
can do is my
best. </div>
<div> As to
the person
that mentioned
the idea of
putting
meaning into
the text.
DECtalk
actually has
the ability to
do some
marketing and
adjustment to
train achieve
that by hand.
Automating the
system to do
that is deal
beyond our
knowledge and
capability.
Understanding
what is being
conveyed is
extremely
extremely
difficult for
a computer. A
simple
example;"You
did that."
Depending on
which word you
emphasize most
there are
three
different ways
of saying this
very simple
sentence with
dramatically
different
meanings. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Wed, Aug
3, 2011 at
12:07 PM, Alex
H. <span><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:linuxx64.bashsh@gmail.com">linuxx64.bashsh@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>Well, to
us,, we never
really heard
later versions
of DT, only
the classics
from the 90's,
so forgive us
if we compare
the new
attempts to
prior versions
- it's not
like we have a
huge library
of source code
to just browse
at will and
endless
samples of
every
version....
so... yeah.<br>
<br>
Wanna know
what's been
wrong with the
samples and
attempts
posted to this
list a few
months ago for
the sapi
dectalk? I'll
tell you.<br>
<br>
The voices
were clipping
and squawking,
and all the
voices sounded
like they had
a speech
problem.
Perfect Paul
wasn't perfect
as most of us
have heard
before. The
voices
themselves
sound not like
DECTalk at
all, they also
drop out in
volume, just
like a human
cuz it's using
HLsyn to make
it sound more
natural. <br>
I've heard DT
4.2cd, 4.3,
4.4, 4.61,
4.62 and 4.64.
But since
you've pointed
out before
that version
numbers don't
matter to
speak, is this
even important
anyway or are
we just
listening to
the same code
with minor
tweaks to get
the various
versions we
know?<br>
<br>
Disable HLsyn
in the new
product, and
it'll suck
less. I like
forment based
synths, not
ones that try
and sound
human, because
I and others
are used to
classic
forment
non-HLsyn
versions of
DECTalk. True
that HLsyn is
still formant
but it's
trying to
sound real and
have human
articulation,
and knowing
that I can
understand why
this version
sounds
different.
It's just not
what we're
used to,
that's all.
Some Joe Blow
off the street
who has never
heard
synthesized
speech can't
understand
Eloquence from
DECTalk from
Espeak
anyways, so
this point of
understanding
speech is a
moot one.
They'd be
better off
using Cepstral
or some
human-sampled
synths and
wasting their
hard drive
space. This is
being targeted
at a
relatively
small group of
people who
have used
DECTalk before
and like it,
so i think
we're safe
there. I'd
consider
giving HLsyn
another shot
if it was
completed. But
as always,
corporate
America screws
everyone over
in the end,
and that was
the case with
Dectalk. So
much so, that
Fonix wanted
to make
FonixTalk and
specificly try
and make it
sound human.
The result
sucks.<br>
<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
On 8/3/2011
11:17 AM,
ebruckert
Bruckert
wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> First
of all let me
make you aware
that I use
DragonDictate,
as I can't see
very well and
proofreading
is quite
painful so
you'll have to
forgive and
interpret from
mistakes the
DragonDictate
may make. It</div>
<div> I was
taught about
form and
speech
synthesis by
Dennis Klatt,
and by reading
but before my
involvement
with him I
knew next to
nothing. One
of the
questions in
the early days
was could you
achieve higher
intelligibility
by super
articulation
and do better
than natural
speech. What
testing
revealed was
really two
things. At
normal
speaking rates
the answer
always seem to
be that the
closer you
matched to
real speech
the better the
intelligibility
at higher
speaking rates
above that
which humans
could normally
achieve things
were little
different and
I'm not going
to go into the
specifics of
what we did to
make things
better at high
speed other
than to say
they were
based on
knowledge of
speech
perception.</div>
<div> The
second thing
we learned is
that listening
to a
synthesizer
has a very
fast but steep
learning
curve.
Somewhat
analogous to
learning to
understand a
person with a
strong dialect
or speech
impediment. One
of the
problems we
encountered is
that people
often
preferred the
version they
were used to
over any
succeeding
version. But
actual tests
did not
support the
preference.</div>
<div> One
example is the
way tilt was
done inside
DECtalk. The
original
mechanism was
a crude
approximation
of spectral
tilt. Dennis
before he died
developed a
much more
accurate (meaning
matching human
production)
tilt filter
that was not
able to be
incorporated
to a later
date. As a
point of
interest
Dennis was so
dedicated that
he last
modified the
DECtalk code 3
days before he
passed
away. So the
spectral tilt
was changed
and this
changed what
you might
consider the
tone control
on an old
radio or
record player.
That is just
one of many
reasons why
DECtalk change
slightly over
the years.</div>
<div> The
5.0 DECtalk
Incorporated
the work of
Prof. Ken
Stevens who
was Dennis is
blessed MIT
and close
friend. The
5.0 code
unfortunately
did not yield
the expected
results, but
we did learn a
lot from the
attempt. This</div>
<div>
there are even
some changes
to DECtalk
that would
change the way
it sounds from
any particular
version, such
as Intonation
that I am
unwilling to
revert because
I know for a
fact that they
caused loss of
information.
So my goal is
very simple I
am working to
create a very
functional
intelligible
DECtalk to put
back out, I am
unwilling to
try and make
it sound
exactly like
any given
person wants
to. I have
been through
this before
and the year
is very
sensitive and
if you
directly
comparing two
versions
side-by-side
you not
testing
anything but
whether did
the same and
that is an
exercise in
futility.
T </div>
<div> </div>
Any specific
issues I can
address.
Secondly as a
word of
warning to
listeners
providing
feedback. The
other thing
we've learned
is that
listeners are
excellent at
deciding that
something is
not right, but
are absolutely
terrible at
exactly
pinpointing
the
problem. The
reason for
this is quite
simple people
judge the
output as
speech which
it only kinda
is, by this I
mean that a
synthesizer
can make
mistakes that
humans cannot
possibly do
and as a
consequence
can't possibly
recognize. An
example of
this is that
after so many
years of
working with
it I have
learned to
hear a foreman
that's moving
too rapidly,
but most
people cannot
hear it. This
is because to
make life easy
we try to lead
nor stuff
that's not
important in
our language,
such as the
nasal
lifestyles in
French or the
retro flex
ours in
American
English which
is Sheehan
have a heckuva
time hearing.
<div>
<pre>
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Ed, good mighty lord, you're doing
exelent dude. <br>
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